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Thread: Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

  1. #1
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

    Jeter.

    Don't get me wrong, he is talented and a sure fire hall of famer, but I can't think of a more over-rated player in my lifetime. Defensively he was below average at best, offensively he was solid, but benefited IMO from ridiculous lineups around him.

    Again, hall of famer? Yes. One of the best to play the game like some people claim. No way.

    The coverage this year is going to be puke worthy.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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    Senior Member Double-A
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    I also posted to Twins forum - wanting to know if the Twins fans will boo Jeter.

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    An .828 career batting SS. Let that sink in for a second.

    The Captain is most certainly one of the all time best SS's.

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  6. #4
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    An .828 career batting SS. Let that sink in for a second.

    The Captain is most certainly one of the all time best SS's.
    His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

    Top SS of all time IMO:
    1. Honus Wagner
    2. A-Rod (roids aside)
    3. George Davis
    4. Cal Ripken
    5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Luke Appling
    8. Derek Jeter
    9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

    It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  7. #5
    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    An .828 career batting SS. Let that sink in for a second.

    The Captain is most certainly one of the all time best SS's.
    He's a great hitter. No one should ever deny him that.

    He is highly overrated as a defender though.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

  8. #6
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Wouldn't a HOFer by definition be "one of the best to play the game?"
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  10. #7
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Wouldn't a HOFer by definition be "one of the best to play the game?"
    You know what I meant. IMO there are different levels of HOFamers. Would you say that Jim Rice is in the same class as Babe Ruth?
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  11. #8
    Well, he was also a great New York Yankee. What do I mean by that? Not exactly sure - it's just that extra something he brought to the team beyond his offense and longetivity. His #2 will hang nicely among the other single digit Yankee numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

    Top SS of all time IMO:
    1. Honus Wagner
    2. A-Rod (roids aside)
    3. George Davis
    4. Cal Ripken
    5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Luke Appling
    8. Derek Jeter
    9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

    It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.
    Larkin was injury proned. Nice to have someone who consistently plays everyday year and year out.

  13. #10
    But he made that heads up play that one time and dove into the stands to catch a foul ball on another occasion all while playing for the Yankees; ergo, he's a great defensive player. Grit, leadership, banana sandwich; Jeter is the full package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuchadoro View Post
    But he made that heads up play that one time and dove into the stands to catch a foul ball on another occasion all while playing for the Yankees; ergo, he's a great defensive player. Grit, leadership, banana sandwich; Jeter is the full package.
    I know the play you're talking about it and popped into my head when thinking about overrated Jeter. He catches a foul ball, takes about 6 more full strides, then dives into the stands. And of course it made every highlight reel ever, when he could have caught it and just slowed down and stopped. Pretty much sums up my annoyance with Jeter. Good player, just too much media hype for me to stand him.

  16. #12
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    The way I see Jeter is a heady player who played to the best of his abilities. I never once thought, he could be better than he is or he could have given more effort or been smarter in this situation or that situation.

    That I will give him. I will give him the fact he's a tough out too. "Clutch" is out there as far as if that's real (ask the SABR community). I think the fact he was in as many post seasons and arguably the best stretch of wins (be interesting to check career Winning % of players) as about any MLB player.

    Overrated as a SS, defensively, absolutely yes. I feel he was likely average to below average defender his whole career.

    But offensively...I honestly don't have a grasp of how good Honus Wagner was other than some metrics that help put some context to his stats, which are great. OPS+ to extra base hits to batting average and stolen bases. And it seems he was quite the defender. Add to that, players of his generation, say he was the best. I'm a big baseball card collector, so part of the 'mystique' of Honus Wager is the fact his card was/is the most treasured/talked/valuable card of all time.

    I liked Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken. Ozzie was fun to watch. I never quite felt he was a great hitter though. Cal Ripken, just the hard worker, better offensively than Smith, but not as fun to watch defensively. I went to about 5-8 baseball games when he played at the Dome. Was definitely a game changer.

    Barry Larkin, now he was similar to Jeter (to me) offensively. A tough out, fouling off pitches to contact when contact needed to be made, but also a great defender.

    I honestly can't put A-Rod in there...maybe first 3 years of his career are steroid free. Not long enough for me to be considered for a top SS in the game. A-Rod also an overrated defender at SS. Even so, he only played SS until he was 27 (8 seasons - same as Ernie Banks). Banks by the way, hit 40+ HR 5x in those 8 seasons at short (steroid free), 2x MVP, and a better defender than BOTH Jeter and A-Rod.

    Robin Yount had 9 seasons at SS too...including a MVP and a GG.

    Luis Aparicio has to be considered...a HOFer, 9 GG's, first 9 seasons in the bigs he led the league in SB.

    Bert Campaneris??

    Spirit of Dave...only nit-picking as you have the only list here - but I don't know how Ernie Banks doesn't make your top 9 at SS...??? If A-Rod had the same # of seasons - Banks was clearly the superior player during their tenures at SS.


    1. Honus Wagner
    2. Cal Ripken, Jr.
    3. Ernie Banks
    4. Derek Jeter
    5. Barry Larkin
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Robin Young
    8. Luis Aparicio

    Again, for me, A-Rod had at most 3 seasons steroid free and only 8 seasons total at the position. So put an (*) there for him.

  17. #13
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding condescending, so I apologize in advance, but thinking any inner-circle, first ballot Hall of Famer is overrated is a little silly.

    Jeter has been one of the best, he has the numbers, he has the longevity, he's been a leader on winning teams, he's the total package.

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  19. #14
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Spirit of Dave...only nit-picking as you have the only list here - but I don't know how Ernie Banks doesn't make your top 9 at SS...??? If A-Rod had the same # of seasons - Banks was clearly the superior player during their tenures at SS.


    1. Honus Wagner
    2. Cal Ripken, Jr.
    3. Ernie Banks
    4. Derek Jeter
    5. Barry Larkin
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Robin Young
    8. Luis Aparicio
    Banks played more games in his career at 1B. I agree. Wagner has crazy numbers, but he isn't Jeter. I think Ripken could be better than Jeter. I like Larkin too. But, Jeter's elite...

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    The way I see Jeter is a heady player who played to the best of his abilities. I never once thought, he could be better than he is or he could have given more effort or been smarter in this situation or that situation.

    That I will give him. I will give him the fact he's a tough out too. "Clutch" is out there as far as if that's real (ask the SABR community). I think the fact he was in as many post seasons and arguably the best stretch of wins (be interesting to check career Winning % of players) as about any MLB player.

    Overrated as a SS, defensively, absolutely yes. I feel he was likely average to below average defender his whole career.

    But offensively...I honestly don't have a grasp of how good Honus Wagner was other than some metrics that help put some context to his stats, which are great. OPS+ to extra base hits to batting average and stolen bases. And it seems he was quite the defender. Add to that, players of his generation, say he was the best. I'm a big baseball card collector, so part of the 'mystique' of Honus Wager is the fact his card was/is the most treasured/talked/valuable card of all time.

    That said, I'd have to say Jeter is about as good offensively as anyone is at the position.

    I liked Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken. Ozzie was fun to watch. I never quite felt he was a great hitter though. Cal Ripken, just the hard worker, better offensively than Smith, but not as fun to watch defensively. I went to about 5-8 baseball games when he played at the Dome. Was definitely a game changer.

    Barry Larkin, now he was similar to Jeter (to me) offensively. A tough out, fouling off pitches to contact when contact needed to be made, but also a great defender.

    I honestly can't put A-Rod in there...maybe first 3 years of his career are steroid free. Not long enough for me to be considered for a top SS in the game. A-Rod also an overrated defender at SS. Even so, he only played SS until he was 27 (8 seasons - same as Ernie Banks). Banks by the way, hit 40+ HR 5x in those 8 seasons at short (steroid free), 2x MVP, and a better defender than BOTH Jeter and A-Rod.

    Robin Yount had 9 seasons at SS too...including a MVP and a GG.

    Luis Aparicio has to be considered...a HOFer, 9 GG's, first 9 seasons in the bigs he led the league in SB.

    Bert Campaneris??

    Spirit of Dave...only nit-picking as you have the only list here - but I don't know how Ernie Banks doesn't make your top 9 at SS...??? If A-Rod had the same # of seasons - Banks was clearly the superior player during their tenures at SS.


    1. Honus Wagner
    2. Cal Ripken, Jr.
    3. Ernie Banks
    4. Derek Jeter
    5. Barry Larkin
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Robin Young
    8. Luis Aparicio

    Again, for me, A-Rod had at most 3 seasons steroid free and only 8 seasons total at the position. So put an (*) there for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Banks played more games in his career at 1B. I agree. Wagner has crazy numbers, but he isn't Jeter. I think Ripken could be better than Jeter. I like Larkin too. But, Jeter's elite...
    Seth, you care to venture a list?

    If I'm reading it right...

    1. Ripken
    2. Jeter
    3. Wagner


    Banks > A-Rod

  23. #17
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuchadoro View Post
    But he made that heads up play that one time and dove into the stands to catch a foul ball on another occasion all while playing for the Yankees; ergo, he's a great defensive player. Grit, leadership, banana sandwich; Jeter is the full package.
    The thing that absolutely bothers me about the "Jeter flip" is that it is considered one of the greatest plays of all time. Does anyone remember THAT VERY SEASON when Hocking made an even better play? It was at Fenway and Craig Grebeck hit a foul pop. Mientkiewicz darted back and pop slid for the catch and then bounced his throw to Hocking (who had raced over from his position at shortstop). Hocking turned and fired a strike to AJ to nail Varitek.

    Of course you can't find a single clip of that play anywhere but for my money's worth it was far more impressive than Jeter's.

    The fair ball catch by Jeter where he ran into the stands five steps later is the same thing.

  24. #18
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Isn't it possible Jeter is both an elite player and wildly overrated? He's been an elite, historic talent but he has also been exceptionally overblown. (Especially in his notable deficiency - fielding)

  25. #19
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Isn't it possible Jeter is both an elite player and wildly overrated? He's been an elite, historic talent but he has also been exceptionally overblown. (Especially in his notable deficiency - fielding)
    \\

    I honestly think that, like Brett Favre, like Duke Basketball, like Tim Tebow, Jeter has been a media favorite, and i think that a lot of people don't like that. That's not his fault. It's not his job to tell them not to love him. Is he perfect? No. Is everything magnified? Yes. But again, Hall of Famer, should be first ballot... very hard to over rate that type of player.

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  27. #20
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots
    I do not find it amazing as those idiots are pretty much correct.

    Sure, Jeter has been overated as a defender, but at his peak he was very capable.

    Jeter is a historical offensive powerhouse at his position. I believe Jeter to be more consistent and a bit better offensively than Ripken, Jr. and Ripken is a sign post in the modern history of baseball shortstops.

    I have spent the last 30 years of my life watching baseball. I may be no guru, but it is insulting to me to strip away the greatness that Jeter has cemented in the game of baseball.

    Since the Mid-Nineties, To me, he is the face of Major League Baseball.

    Nuff Said...
    I suddenly remembered my Charlemagne. Let my armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky.

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