02-08-2014, 08:14 PM #81
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A pretty good conversation here. I am on record as supporting the acquisition of Bonifacio, but the numbers can be convincing either way. On a couple of points I just don't know enough. Three years ago, he played 67 games at short and 36 at third. He has played a lot in center. Why he has played only second and corner OF, probably has something to do with his team's roster, unless there was an injury. I don't know if Bonifacio can capably play third and center, but if he can, IMHO it tips the scales to picking him up.
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02-08-2014, 08:21 PM #82
No one said OBP is the only offensive stat to consider batting leadoff, but combined with his elite speed, these are elements that are sorely lacking in this lineup. Too many Ks, not enough BBs, from virtually this entire cast of non-major league hitting options that the Twins are expected to open the season with at the top and bottom of the order. As weak as Bonifacio is, he's a way better proven MLB option for picking up the offense than Esco or Mastro- and even all of the supposedly "better" hitting options, when it comes to adding Speed and OBP.
I repeat. The Twins don't have a legitimate leadoff hitter. They are going to play the spot by committee, as they did last year, after the Hicks debacle. No reason Bonifacio couldn't be part of that committee.
Last edited by jokin; 02-09-2014 at 01:34 AM.
02-08-2014, 09:32 PM #83
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But let me point out we are talking about bringing something, overall, to the team that makes it deeper, more flexible, and thusly, better. We are talking about a versatile utility player to the team, not a star or starter.
On a 25 man roster you have 8 presumed, primary starting position players, 9 in most cases in the AL where you assume a primary DH. Virtually every team carries an 11 man pitching staff, and in many cases a 12 man staff. Having to have at least one backup C means a bench of 3 or 4 players at the most. At least one of those must be a quality backup middle inf. That now leaves an additional 2 or 3 bench players.
You have two choices here, generally speaking. One is a PH/part time DH type with a decent/big bat who hopefully can fill in decently at one position, OR, a versatile utility type player who can play multiple positions and hopefully offer up at least SOME offensive contribution. There is nothing about Bonifacio that screams or even whispers high quality starter. But again, we're talking useful, versatile utility player. A career BA of .262 and career OB% of .322 with excellent speed and stolen base potential with at least decent defense at multiple positions on an occasional, not every day, basis. His numbers don't stink, he gives us the ability for extra and SB, and positional flexibility to fill in.
02-08-2014, 11:12 PM #84
I want Bonofacio on the roster. I don't want him because I think he is Jacoby Ellsbury. I want him for this roster... This team context... Because He's perfect and I can't think of a single player in all of MLB that's as perfect for our needs.
We are going into 2014 presumably with Trevor Plouffe at 3B and Alex Presley in CF and not a single experienced player at those positions backing them up.
Presley just might be the be the every day CF by default out of Spring Training just like Clete Thomas was in the back half of 2013.
Presley could hit .200 in 2014 and there is no one to take him out of the lineup. Presley could hit .200 and he'd have to be penciled in every day regardless.
I remember 2013... It wasn't that long ago. We started with Hicks in CF and he was all we had. Wilken Ramirez was the backup CF and after it was clear that Hicks had to be sent down. Here comes Clete Thomas and Clete played every day. I don't want to do that again!!!
Hicks needs to start at Rochester. We don't know if he's gonna figure out the MLB breaking pitch or not. Mastro is no guarantee to be rostered. Buxton won't be rushed and we have corner OF's coming out of our ears.
Escobar could play 3B if needed but Escobar won't push Plouffe for PT. Bonofacio could because of the speed he brings and the ability to get on base. He has a superior skill that can be utilized that Escobar doesn't have. Even if he has some skills that are deficient.
Plouffe was absolutely horrible in stretches last year. He played everyday regardless because we did not have a decent 3B option to replace him. He needs to be pushed. Sano probably isn't breaking camp with the big club.
Bringing in Bonofacio... Not as a starter but as a... I'm here and I'll take your job if you don't perform guy is exactly what this team needs and Bonofacio can do it at two positions we desperately need it at... 3B and CF.
We can't put Kubel in CF if Presley goes into a funk.
It was so frustrating watching Clete Thomas play every day. I don't understand how anyone can be afraid of bringing in Emilio Bonofacio after 92 Games with Clete Thomas.
And... He's a player that can easily be pushed aside to another role when Sano comes up and to another role when Buxton comes up. Or... Easily Cut... DFA'd... Or whatevered... If we magically become the loaded team of 25 monsters.
And... We need speed... We have no speed!!! Good God... We were station to station baseball... Game after game after game in 2013.
For those of you who don't want him... Good thing I'm not the GM because he'd already be here. OPS be damned!!! Bring him here.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 02-08-2014 at 11:16 PM.A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".
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02-08-2014, 11:18 PM #85
Given that the Royals saw enough positive in 2013 and were very willing to re-sign Bonifacio at $3.5M for 2014 before they found someone better......and that the Twins won't be on the hook for anything close to that number, that it's at least worth a look to find out for certain if it really is "a waste of a roster spot." (I still see close to a dozen guys on this current roster that we would never miss if the Twins parted ways.)
Last edited by jokin; 02-08-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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02-08-2014, 11:24 PM #86
And wowzer points on Clete in CF, RB. I've been blocking that image for my own mental health. We had a AA-level guy who played more than half our games in CF last year, and some of us are balking at the prospect of picking up a legitimate major leaguer for next to nothing with the proposition of getting back-up time at the position.
Last edited by jokin; 02-08-2014 at 11:32 PM.
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02-09-2014, 12:11 AM #87
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02-09-2014, 12:37 AM #88
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I do agree with Doc that the guy is flexible, but I don't think his overall talent would make the team deeper.
I would rather see the team trade for someone like Flores to be the bench guy. Ryan would have to give up something to get something. It would be better than the band-aid approach that failed miserably with the pitching staff.
Last edited by old nurse; 02-09-2014 at 12:52 AM.
02-09-2014, 01:16 AM #89
As for Zone ratings:
1. Sample size. He plays multiple positions. He plays where the team needs him to play and he hasn't been a regular starter either... apart from 2011 and 2009. When limited playing time is split by 6 different positions the numbers will be misleading. You need some more data to be fair to him. More data for stabilization.
2. I personally don't belong to the church of defensive stats so I'm not a good guy to dive into that.
If he truly does lack range with his speed... Reaction and route running would be the two biggest culprits. I don't see it when I watch him play.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 02-09-2014 at 01:26 AM.A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".
02-09-2014, 04:19 AM #90
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02-09-2014, 07:35 AM #91
This makes sense only if it allows the team to carry an extra bat because he can play all over the diamond. Reports of whether he can play center as well as Mastro and short as well as Escobar are all over the map. I don't have enough data to say one way or the other. But if having him means we can bring one fewer utility guy than we normally need, I'm for it.
BTW, this is the problem with relying exclusively on stats. When guys are primarily bench guys, it is really hard to judge how much luck is involved with their numbers. I have not seen enough of him to judge him. Punto I know was not as good as his defensive numbers. I'm confident in that assessment after watching him play in hundreds of games. I don't have anything on this guy. So I'll gladly defer to the professional scouts. If they sign him, they determine that he's good enough. If not, no big loss."If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."
02-09-2014, 09:01 AM #92
I think ink you undervalue Hicks by a lot. I do think they'll start the year with Presley. But, if he struggles, I expect Hicks to take over for the rest of the year. Then you've got Mastro and Presley vying for fourth outfielder. We have one more viable center fielder than we had last year. I can't say Bonny is any better in center than those two, all things considered.
His value is as a replacement for Escobar. Being able to play in the outfield is what makes him potentially a better fit than Escobar. But it isn't the reason you sign him."If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."
02-09-2014, 10:00 AM #93
I would imagine our 13 position players breaking out of camp look like this (unless I'm missing something):
C - Suzuki, Fryer
1B - Mauer, Parmelee
IF - Plouffe, Escobar, Florimon, Dozier
OF - Willingham, Pressley, Arcia, Kubel
To me, that leaves room for a guy like Bonifacio to serve as a super utility player. I'd prefer him over Mastroanni or even Bartlett.
02-09-2014, 10:44 AM #94
Ok... Troubleshooting this patient. The data I use is what teams do with him... It suggests that he is a utility player. That's why I recommend signing him as a utility player and not a starter.
2008... The Nats are not happy with Felipe Lopez at 2B. They trade for Bonofacio... Giving up Jon Rauch to the D-Backs to get him. The Nats give Bonofacio the lions share of work at 2B for the final two months. He is traded to the Marlins in the off season for Josh Willingham (Among Others).
2009... Mike Jacobs was traded to the Royals because Gaby Sanchez was supposed to be the hot new 1B option. Sanchez struggles in ST so with cold feet. Manager Fredi Gonzalez moves Jorge Cantu over to 1B and hands Emilio Bonofacio 3B. He doesn't hurt the Marlins... They win 87 games but the Marlin fans (16 of them) hate Bonofacio just like Twins Fans hated Punto. A light hitting 3B is gonna get you hated.
2010... Sanchez is finally installed as the 1B and Cantu is moved back to 3B. Bonofacio becomes Super Utility. He plays 29 games in the OF and 20 Games in the INF. The Marlins are working with Coughlin, Ross, Maybin and Morrison in the OF and a young Mike Stanton making noise in the minors. Maybin under performs so Cody Ross plays CF more than anyone else that year. Bonofacio plays 6 different positions and never finds a regular home. He plays CF more than other position due to Maybin struggling.
2011... Bonofacio puts the super in super utility. Having a decent year and collecting over 600 at bats at multiple positions. The wheels are coming off the Marlins. Jack McKeon is brought in as manager mid season to try and stabilize things in the final season before the brand new stadium. The Marlins feel (I assume) that Bonofacio is more valuable as the utility guy because Donnie Murphy is the opening day starter at 3B. The Marlins are still unsure of Mike Stanton's readiness. Bono first hits the lineup as the RF bringing Stanton along slowly. Murphy Tanks at 3B and Bono is back at 3B and Hanley plays terribly and eventually injures his shoulder so Bonofacio spends a big chunk off the season at SS. He plays full time without having a full time job and nearly hits .300... Marlin fans (all 12 of them) don't hate him as much anymore and the Marlins decide to pay him a couple of million to hang around in 2012.
2012... Ozzie Guillen... New Stadium and Jose Reyes... Reyes at SS... Ramirez moves to 3B... Bonofacio is named the opening day CF. He hits around .270 with very little power and steals around 20 bases in a little over a month before he gets knocked out by a thumb injury in May. He comes back in July and the Marlins are dead!!! Stanton is hurt... Infante is traded to Detroit and Hanley is traded to the Dodgers. Ruggiano becomes the new CF and Bono is moved to 2B to fill the Infante hole. He gets hurt again and is traded in the off season to the Blue Jays.
2013... He opens the Season as the Opening day 2B. He has what can be qualified as a bad year in Toronto. However... In my opinion... It is his first bad year. Let's say... Bad half year... Other years were at least average. He was horribly awful in April thru June... He turns it around in July... The Wheel are coming off the Jays... He's struggling at 2B... Pretty soon the utility role that he's a natural at comes calling. Bautista and Lawrie can't stay healthy. Melky, Rasmus, Jose Reyes all need time to heal. Bono moves around the Diamond like he never has before. He is traded to the Royals and the Royals hand him the everyday 2B job and he returns to normal form hitting near .280.
2014... The Royals are not that impressed obviously and they have a decent roster. They sign Infante to play 2B and plug a long time sore point. Bonofacio is DFA'd.
I want him... Some here don't.
The Twins need backup at 3B and CF and speed. Can anyone think of another MLB player who kills all 3 of these birds with one stone like Bono does. I can't.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 02-09-2014 at 10:52 AM.A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".
02-09-2014, 11:03 AM #95
Good history lesson. The common thread in all his misfortune is mediocrity on teams that are looking to build rosters with above average players. That is a good description of the Twins. Perhaps he's a better fit for a team looking for a veteran on the bench and not in development mode, as the Nats, Marlins and Royals were in, and the Twins are in. The goal is development first and respectability second. Bono adds nothing to the development discussion, unless he's purely a sign and trade target. Those guys are best signed to minor league deals, Like Matt Guerrier and Jason Bartlett. So, my new position is get him on a minor league deal and make him beat out Escobar in ST. If another team offers him a major league deal, take a pass."If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."
02-09-2014, 11:09 AM #96
He was obviously not ready last year. And not ready by a longshot and it would be a mistake to move into 2014 with Hicks in the plans at all until you see what he does.
When Hicks comes... Bono can be moved elsewhere like everyone else has done with him. Or Cut him loose if we are loaded.
Right now... Hicks ain't ready... Mastro is going to get pushed out the door by Kubel and Presley is playing CF everyday ala Clete Thomas. Trevor Plouffe is playing 3B everyday and sometimes Plouffe doesn't show up.
The past two years... Having to keep going back to a dry well because you didn't have a viable option to replace or at least challenge the everyday guy struggling day in and day out is killing the Twins.
Bonofacio becomes a cheap experienced option at two positions of need and 4 other positions to boot.
The more I get in this discussion... The stronger my conviction is getting.A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".
02-09-2014, 11:18 AM #97
As of right now... In my opinion. Bono blocks no prospect. 2 million a year should not block any prospect.
Hicks and Sano most likely won't be here opening day... When they come... Decisions are made...
Until they come... you have to set up your roster for the pre Sano/Hicks days.
For that Roster... Bono is perfect.A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".
02-09-2014, 12:44 PM #98
If you look at it: 2 spots do not have a capable backup and those 2 spots need a capable backup more than the others.
Who's backing up Plouffe at 3B? Escobar could but he doesn't possess elite skills in any facet of his game. If Plouffe tanks... It could cause a calling of Sano to the majors before they want to and taking a chance with a prospect as elite as Sano is a bad idea... Or... you coast with Escobar at 3B or Bartlett. Bonofacio is better and I'm tired of coasting with Butera, Thomas and at times... Plouffe.
Who's backing up Presley in CF? Certainly not Willingham, Arcia, Kubel or Parmelee. Presley is every day until Hicks comes to town and eventually Buxton.
Until then who's gonna play CF if Presley gets hurt or hits .188?
One spot left and Bonofacio has performed better than both Bartlett and Mastro at the MLB level and Bonofacio can back up both positions plus others. We can't say that Mastro is a solid piece of the planning for 2015. Might as well upgrade for 2014.
It's an obvious choice as long as you don't look at it like we are signing him to take over and make the all star game.
But, Along those lines... With Bonofacio flexibility and his speed. If he gets some regular playing time and puts up numbers like he did in 2011 or even 2012 before he got hurt or the back half of 2013. He may have some trade value at the trade deadline.
Nobody in MLB is experienced at both 3B and CF and elite speed with a reasonable price tag.
The only thing that could get in the way is price tag and he was DFA'd so that can't be that expensive.
I can't see any downside at all. Oh... and we need speed. I may have forgotten to mention that over the past few months.
OK... I've over hammered my point this morning and we don't need any hammering from anyone so I'll leave it here.
It's been a great discussion... Please continue.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 02-09-2014 at 12:47 PM.A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".
02-09-2014, 12:52 PM #99
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Who should the Twins trade in order to get Bonifacio? Escobear?
02-09-2014, 02:13 PM #100
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