Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 165

Thread: Emilio Bonifacio DFA'd

  1. #61
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    434
    Like
    0
    Liked 42 Times in 31 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    I can't really figure out what posters really want, for the team to be the best possible this year, even marginally so. Or rather, whether it is more important to find out about the pieces we already have and whether they fit into the future. Since I am a bit split on that question myself, I understand the confusion.

    In this particular case, I am not so sure Bonifacio brings enough to the table to justify the at bats he will likely take from others. I am pretty sure Escobar can play at least 5 positions himself, not counting catcher. He doesn't run as well as Bonifacio and probably won't have as good as OBP. His defense is better, and he may be able to hit better with a little more pop. Maybe the at bats that Bonifacio would get should go to Escobar, this year. If only to find out what we really have in him.

    I really wouldn't want Bonifacio to be taking at bats from Arcia, Dozier or even Plouffe. I want to see what these guys can do this year.

  2. This user likes Jim H's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    cmathewson (02-08-2014)

  3. #62
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    621
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    Essentially a league average OBP as your lead off hitter? With that criteria Willingham could lead off with better results. The various defensive metrics basically point to average at best, despite his speed, in any other defensive position but second base.

  4. #63
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
    Posts
    3,574
    Like
    196
    Liked 532 Times in 346 Posts
    Blog Entries
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    I can't really figure out what posters really want, for the team to be the best possible this year, even marginally so. Or rather, whether it is more important to find out about the pieces we already have and whether they fit into the future. Since I am a bit split on that question myself, I understand the confusion.

    In this particular case, I am not so sure Bonifacio brings enough to the table to justify the at bats he will likely take from others. I am pretty sure Escobar can play at least 5 positions himself, not counting catcher. He doesn't run as well as Bonifacio and probably won't have as good as OBP. His defense is better, and he may be able to hit better with a little more pop. Maybe the at bats that Bonifacio would get should go to Escobar, this year. If only to find out what we really have in him.

    I really wouldn't want Bonifacio to be taking at bats from Arcia, Dozier or even Plouffe. I want to see what these guys can do this year.
    That is the nice thing about having a versatile player. Bonifacio could get ABs at several different positions. It is close to a sure thing that someone that Bonifacio can replace will struggle or be injured. He's versatile enough that he can get plenty of PAs even if somebody like Plouffe goes off. The club needs speed and that is Bonifacio's best quality.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    301
    Like
    0
    Liked 43 Times in 32 Posts
    How can Bonifacio utilize his speed when he will not even be able to get on base most of the time, just look at his OBP! Nice fit for Rochester though.

  6. This user likes oldguy10's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    cmathewson (02-08-2014)

  7. #65
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,656
    Like
    9
    Liked 54 Times in 35 Posts
    There were those who accused the Twins of dumpster diving while going for pitching the last few years. In search of players for the field, there is yet another fan proposal for a one tool player.. Would positions and posts have been reversed had the Twins made a deal for this guy before he was DFA?
    IIRC Ben Revere with his ,331 OBP and speed was not thought of very highly as a leadoff hitter because he did not walk enough, thus leading to a lower OBP..
    Bonifacio should be a free agent now, able to sign a minor league contract anywhere.
    Last edited by old nurse; 02-08-2014 at 04:07 PM.

  8. #66
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
    Posts
    3,574
    Like
    196
    Liked 532 Times in 346 Posts
    Blog Entries
    32
    Bonifacio has a lifetime BOP of .322 with a .360 and a .330 leading in to 2013. He was terrible for the Jays, but had a .352 for the Royals in 42 games. I think he's a low-cost upgrade in an area of need.

  9. This user likes stringer bell's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Riverbrian (02-08-2014)

  10. #67
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
    Posts
    3,574
    Like
    196
    Liked 532 Times in 346 Posts
    Blog Entries
    32
    OBP not BOP.

  11. #68
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
    Posts
    4,072
    Like
    1,804
    Liked 1,280 Times in 512 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    BOP.
    We could use more of that too.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  12. These 2 users like snepp's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    ashburyjohn (02-08-2014), jokin (02-08-2014)

  13. #69
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    How can Bonifacio utilize his speed when he will not even be able to get on base most of the time, just look at his OBP! Nice fit for Rochester though.

    I've looked at the OBP. In reality, a nice fit for the Twins in a rotating utility role, when you consider the alternatives, and the fact that we lack a top of the order, on-base guy. Again, Bonifacio would be 3rd on the Twins in OBP behind Mauer and Willingham.

    2011 Fla. .360
    2012 Mia. .330
    2013 Tor. .258
    2013 KCR .352

    OBP from 2011-2013: .332 (which ranks 15th among all qualifying 2B)

  14. #70
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Bonifacio has a lifetime BOP of .322 with a .360 and a .330 leading in to 2013. He was terrible for the Jays, but had a .352 for the Royals in 42 games. I think he's a low-cost upgrade in an area of need.
    Extreme need. Here are the alternative ZiPS projections for OBP candidates at the top and bottom of the batting order:

    Presley .309
    Dozier .303
    Florimon .289
    Excobar .287

    And none of these guys can come anywhere close to stealing a base like Bonifacio has proven he can do.

  15. #71
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Essentially a league average OBP as your lead off hitter? With that criteria Willingham could lead off with better results. The various defensive metrics basically point to average at best, despite his speed, in any other defensive position but second base.
    League average OBP .318...... Bonifacio, in direct contrast has a .332 OBP over the last 3 years, and skewed down by one bad half-year experience with Toronto.

    Average defense is a good thing when you can play 6 positions and provide the 3rd best OBP on a team without a true leadoff man. Your proposal is to instead bat guys in the leadoff spot that all threaten to OBP below .300.
    Last edited by jokin; 02-08-2014 at 04:46 PM.

  16. This user likes jokin's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    DocBauer (02-08-2014)

  17. #72
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    I really wouldn't want Bonifacio to be taking at bats from Arcia, Dozier or even Plouffe. I want to see what these guys can do this year.
    I don't think anyone wants PAs taken away from Arcia or Dozier, but they could use a day off every now and then, and there are certain pitching match-ups where Bonifacio undoubtedly has historically had an advantage.

  18. #73
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    There were those who accused the Twins of dumpster diving while going for pitching the last few years. In search of players for the field, there is yet another fan proposal for a one tool player.. Would positions and posts have been reversed had the Twins made a deal for this guy before he was DFA?
    IIRC Ben Revere with his ,331 OBP and speed was not thought of very highly as a leadoff hitter because he did not walk enough, thus leading to a lower OBP..
    Bonifacio should be a free agent now, able to sign a minor league contract anywhere.


    Your use of Revere as an example is interesting. As one-dimensional as his game was for the Twins, the Twins were badly exposed at the top of the batting order in 2013, and that .331 by Revere (or whoever else) at the top of the order with his speed would look mighty good right about now. There's no doubt, Bonifacio is what he is, a 26th man, but a 26th man who actually has two main tools, not one, as you allege, who can help the right teams with his skill set. He is one of the best baserunners in the league, but also offers switch-hitting and positional flexibility, and fills a gaping hole on this team with his above-average ability at reaching base.
    Last edited by jokin; 02-08-2014 at 05:07 PM.

  19. #74
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    I did not use the statistic to measure future success. As you might have read WPA measures what has happened on a play by play basis. You cited a 2013 batting average compared to the Twins players as a reason to take on this player. I gave you a statistic that was more inclusive of what a player has done for the year and used it to compare what players contributed for that year.

    There is no upside to this kind of signing. He is a substitute utility player. There is no upside. I would rather they sign a career minor league player coming of a bad season or two that had the upside of being average.


    Every past statistic on Bonifacio would show that his value is base running and playing second base. The Twins have Dozier. The pinch running duties could fall to any number of Twins players that ride the bench under the tutelage of Molitor except for Parmalee/Collabello survivor.

    There is no upside .....oh.....except the already-demonstrated upside that I've published and that you ignore (instead you use a non-predictive stat for some reason?) from his prima facie statistics relative to the alternatives currently inhabiting the Twins roster.

    And yes, of course we would rather the Twins sign someone with more upside, but signing a career AAAA guy works out far, far, far, far less often than utilizing a proven major leaguer....who despite your protestations to the contrary, has been above average in 2 key areas where the Twins are clearly below average.

    And no one has proposed making Bonifacio the designated pinch runner. The Twins need someone that has proven at the major league level that he can get on base better than the alternatives currently inhabiting the Twins roster. If you can think of others that are also about to become DFAs and can play multiple positions- with more upside, I'm interested in hearing about them.
    Last edited by jokin; 02-08-2014 at 05:12 PM.

  20. #75
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,509
    Like
    72
    Liked 162 Times in 103 Posts
    Blog Entries
    31
    Based on reading through blogs and reports about Bonafacio's fielding, I don't think he is even average at any position. At best, may play a below average 2B and possibly LF. He would be a poor 3B, SS, CF and RF with his weak arm.

    The last two years he has played only 2B, CF and LF with any significant innings. He hasn't started at SS since 2011. That is not a utility player. The only reason to sign him is if he is seen as a clear upgrade to Dozier and the a Twins see a Dozier as a utility player or a clear upgrade to Presley.

    The Twins have several below average to poor fielders on the team already in Plouffe, Willingham, Arcia, Kubel, Suzuki, Parmelee, Presley(in CF) and Pinto. They don't need to add another.

  21. #76
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,717
    Like
    870
    Liked 844 Times in 540 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    Based on reading through blogs and reports about Bonafacio's fielding,
    I don't think he is even average at any position.

    At best, may play a below average 2B and possibly LF. He would be a poor 3B, SS, CF and RF with his weak arm.

    The last two years he has played only 2B, CF and LF with any significant innings. He hasn't started at SS since 2011. That is not a utility player. The only reason to sign him is if he is seen as a clear upgrade to Dozier and the a Twins see a Dozier as a utility player or a clear upgrade to Presley.

    The Twins have several below average to poor fielders on the team already in Plouffe, Willingham, Arcia, Kubel, Suzuki, Parmelee, Presley(in CF) and Pinto. They don't need to add another.
    My assumptions on Bonifacio's defense as being average to slightly below average were based on BRef giving him a net postive rating in 2 of the last 4 years, with a practically neutral ranking in 2012 and a -0.5 in 2011.



    You can only play 8 guys on defense at any one time. If you add someone with equal defense ("average to poor"), but who adds upgrades in speed and OBP to your lineup, that's still a net plus. And yes, I'm thinking that he gets the bulk of his PAs as a CF (sharing time with Presley), with occasional looks in LF, 3B and 2B.


    Until someone comes up with a a couple better leadoff options- admittedly very sadly- Bonifacio still qualifies as someone likely to perform better when getting some of the leadoff ABs for the Twins. There is no legitimate projected leadoff batter in the organization AA and above, Mauer actually is the only one close to fitting the bill. While they're waiting on Buxton's arrival, it kind-of behooves the Twins to address this situation in the meantime.

  22. #77
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
    Posts
    2,271
    Like
    241
    Liked 461 Times in 290 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    OBP not BOP.
    Cherry picking. He was terrible for the Jays over most of the season. He clicked with the Royals over fewer that 100 PAs. It's wishful thinking that we'd get that guy rather than the guy the Jays had. His ceiling is an average OBP. His floor is a .250 OBP. That's a waste of a roster spot unless he signs a minor league deal.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  23. #78
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
    Posts
    2,271
    Like
    241
    Liked 461 Times in 290 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    My assumptions on Bonifacio's defense as being average to slightly below average were based on BRef giving him a net postive rating in 2 of the last 4 years, with a practically neutral ranking in 2012 and a -0.5 in 2011.



    You can only play 8 guys on defense at any one time. If you add someone with equal defense ("average to poor"), but who adds upgrades in speed and OBP to your lineup, that's still a net plus. And yes, I'm thinking that he gets the bulk of his PAs as a CF (sharing time with Presley), with occasional looks in LF, 3B and 2B.


    Until someone comes up with a a couple better leadoff options- admittedly very sadly- Bonifacio still qualifies as someone likely to perform better when getting some of the leadoff ABs for the Twins. There is no legitimate projected leadoff batter in the organization AA and above, Mauer actually is the only one close to fitting the bill. While they're waiting on Buxton's arrival, it kind-of behooves the Twins to address this situation in the meantime.
    Most of that was at second base. He's poor everywhere else.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  24. #79
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
    Posts
    2,271
    Like
    241
    Liked 461 Times in 290 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Extreme need. Here are the alternative ZiPS projections for OBP candidates at the top and bottom of the batting order:

    Presley .309
    Dozier .303
    Florimon .289
    Excobar .287

    And none of these guys can come anywhere close to stealing a base like Bonifacio has proven he can do.

    But this guy can't play short or center. And are you honestly suggesting this guy is better than Dozier?
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  25. #80
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
    Posts
    2,271
    Like
    241
    Liked 461 Times in 290 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I hate to hog the conversation but, one other thing: As a utility guy, it's highly unlikely that he would ever lead off. Since when is OBP the only offensive stat we should consider for anything but the leadoff spot? His OPS is pathetic, especially since he can't play short or center. If I'm going to live with an 80 OPS+ guy, he better bring a better glove and play short. I'd rather have Escobar and Mastro.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.