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Thread: Big Shock (Sarcasm): Tanaka to Yankees

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    How about the argument that if you dont pay ,you dont play(in the post season)?
    Unless you are the Pirates, Indians, A's and Rays.... (aka almost half of the playoff teams last year)

  2. #62
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Unless you are the Pirates, Indians, A's and Rays.... (aka almost half of the playoff teams last year)
    There were 14 teams with payrolls exceeding $100M on opening day 2013. There were 11 teams that won more than 90 games. Only 5 teams were on both lists. Interestingly, of the top 5 teams in salary, 3 won 90 games. Of the 14 over $100M, 8 were over .500, so nearly half of those teams finished under .500 on the season. Money doesn't buy wins, it never has, and it never will. You win by producing talent from the minor leagues and utilizing that talent either on the field or to acquire additional/different talent to enhance the major league team.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

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  4. #63
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    So the Twins should dedicate 25% of their payroll to a guy who hasn't pitched an MLB game and whose arm has been abused in NPB?
    The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true, then the numbers Tanaka has put up would make him one of, if not the no. 1, top prospect in baseball. Worth tens of millions to any team and more yet to a team like the Yankees that needs to make especially sure they're selling ALDS tickets in September and not $5 tickets to the Vodka Dave's of the world.

    And, Tanaka started as many games between Apr 2 and Nov 2 as Trevor May did between Apr 5 and Aug 31 (27). He racked up some big pitch counts but certainly all the rest (and the ~6 fewer starts compared to MLB) is a mitigating factor in whatever wear and tear pitching's done to his arm.

  5. #64
    Nah, the twins would need to pay $200M to simply get even with the endorsements.

  6. #65
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true,.
    That kind of thinking sure worked well for the Twins in the recent past...

    Quick and easy league translations probably aren't worth much when evaluating individual players, and probably only holding up in the aggregate.

  7. #66
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true, then the numbers Tanaka has put up would make him one of, if not the no. 1, top prospect in baseball. Worth tens of millions to any team and more yet to a team like the Yankees that needs to make especially sure they're selling ALDS tickets in September and not $5 tickets to the Vodka Dave's of the world.

    And, Tanaka started as many games between Apr 2 and Nov 2 as Trevor May did between Apr 5 and Aug 31 (27). He racked up some big pitch counts but certainly all the rest (and the ~6 fewer starts compared to MLB) is a mitigating factor in whatever wear and tear pitching's done to his arm.
    The problem with #1 prospects is a good chunk of the time they don't live up to expectations. Do you think the rays would have been happy to have been on the hook for $150 mil + for delmon young?

    Also, I have spent plenty of money on ALDS tickets to see the Yankees destroy my twins I just enjoy being able to get $5 bleacher seats, or $20 tix 3 rows from the field. Also I always buy on stub hub anyways, so it's not like the Yankees are actually getting that money....it's the scalpers and season ticket holders who suffer during a "down year"

  8. #67
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true, then the numbers Tanaka has put up would make him one of, if not the no. 1, top prospect in baseball. Worth tens of millions to any team and more yet to a team like the Yankees that needs to make especially sure they're sellinLDS tickets in September and not $5 tickets to the Vodka Dave's of the world.
    I don't know if that's true at all. From what I've read of NPB, it has a smattering of MLB-quality players, several more AAA/AAAA guys, and a slew of guys who would struggle to round out a AA roster. In short, their talent level is all over the place.

    And yeah, Tanaka might be the #1 prospect in MLB and he might be worth tens of millions of dollars...

    Except the Yankees didn't give him tens of millions. They gave him $150 million. That's Ervin Santana and Matt Garza.

    What would you rather have, Tanaka or Santana/Garza?

    There is a ton of downside with Tanaka and not much upside when he's paid like Zack Greinke without the experience of Zack Greinke.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    There were 14 teams with payrolls exceeding $100M on opening day 2013. There were 11 teams that won more than 90 games. Only 5 teams were on both lists. Interestingly, of the top 5 teams in salary, 3 won 90 games. Of the 14 over $100M, 8 were over .500, so nearly half of those teams finished under .500 on the season.

    Money doesn't buy wins, it never has, and it never will.


    You win by producing talent from the minor leagues and utilizing that talent either on the field or to acquire additional/different talent to enhance the major league team.
    Except that was a key ingredient in the rationale the Twins made to City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, as well as the citizens of Minnesota to get them to agree to the constuction of their playhouse. The added revenue from TF meant no more losing of in-house talent to Free Agency, and the ability to compete with the "Haves" for the missing FA pieces critical to remaining playoff-competitive, year-in, year-out. A winning team seems like a faded, distant memory now.... (and I'm not advocating for matching or beating the contract that the Yankees have offered Tanaka....for most every team except the Yankees and Dodgers, this contract would be insanely risky).
    Last edited by jokin; 01-23-2014 at 01:12 AM.

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  11. #69
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    Steinbrenner is quoted...on his father's tenure at the helm of the Yankees and then, just sort of a 'we could do this if we wanted to'...so be thankful we don't type of sentiments.

    "He didn't have revenue sharing, at least for most of his time," Hank Steinbrenner added. "That's what these people in the sports media don't seem to get. If it wasn't for revenue sharing, we'd have a payroll of $300 million a year if we wanted to. So we're doing this despite having to pay all that revenue sharing."

    ESPN Link here.

    When's the next collective bargaining agreement?

    Their profit for 2012 was $471 million. Not sure that counts TV deal money too. Source: Forbes.

    The rules have to work with the players union, they want their money, and they're not as concerned about competition levels - as the ones getting big checks can sign with any team they want. Whether or not they understand that in order for the Yankees to make so much money, they need the collective US involved in the sport.

    Which, I wonder, the ramifications of increasing ticket prices...say 10 years down the road as the 'gap' widens amongst the 'haves' and 'have nots' even as far as disposable income.

    I haven't gone to as many games as I used to. I do have some more money now as a 'professional', but I prefer to watch most MLB games on TV and pay $15-$20 and sit on the 3rd base dugout for Rough Riders (Rangers AA affiliate) games.

    If tickets were that for the Rangers, I'd probably go to 15-30 games a year. They do just fine without me though.

    The Yankees, like 'em or not, are still abiding by all the rules. Maybe the rules need to be changed?

  12. #70
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    Money does not guarantee wins, but it sure helps fill gaps.....and I think the Yankees showed for two decades money can win, oh, and the sox and tigers and rangers all say hi too.
    Lighten up Francis....

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  14. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Except that was the a key ingredient in the rationale the Twins made to City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, as well as the citizens of Minnesota to get them to agree to the constuction of their playhouse. The added revenue from TF meant no more losing of in-house talent to Free Agency, and the ability to compete with the "Haves" for the missing FA pieces critical to remaining playoff-competitive, year-in, year-out. A winning team seems like a faded, distant memory now.... (and I'm not advocating for matching or beating the contract that the Yankees have offered Tanaka....for most every team except the Yankees and Dodgers, this contract would be insanely risky).
    good point. If money does not matter, why did the twins beg for a new stadium?
    Lighten up Francis....

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  16. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    The Rays say hello. As do the A's. I do not think it is a real stretch to say the Cardinals would like to remind you they don't need the overpaying of players to get a ring. It is all about well managing your avenues of resources so as to not have to do the extreme.
    So when will we hire Tony to run our resources?

  17. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Unless you are the Pirates, Indians, A's and Rays.... (aka almost half of the playoff teams last year)
    Pirates? rebuilding for 20 years....Indians rebuilding for 10+ years and last year went out and spent money,As well they have this guy named Bean he kind of has this wierd idea about using stats and things like that , also they ponied up Cespedes , and the Rays what can 1 say about the Rays....they have a much better manager then ours , they have better scouting department then ours and of course they have a General manager with a pair of balls....

  18. #74
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    The other owners want revenue sharing more than winning. The price of one year of Ricky Nolasco can buy a couple of minutes of advertising during the Super Bowl, a replica trophy of the World Series, pay an appearance fee to the Commissioner of MLB to hand the owner said trophy proclaiming him the best owner in MLB!--and probably money left over! Change the system to put in a salary cap--not happening!

  19. #75
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Money does not guarantee wins, but it sure helps fill gaps.....and I think the Yankees showed for two decades money can win, oh, and the sox and tigers and rangers all say hi too.
    How many titles have the Rangers and Tigers had the past two decades?

    I love how the Twins make the playoffs 6 times in 9 years....yet many of you folks say "Playoffs mean nothing, its all about the titles" and yet you bring up the Tigers and Rangers (Two teams who haven't won a title anytime recently) as an example as such a much superior org then the Twins.

    It's hard to take those people seriously at times....

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  21. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Except that was the a key ingredient in the rationale the Twins made to City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, as well as the citizens of Minnesota to get them to agree to the constuction of their playhouse. The added revenue from TF meant no more losing of in-house talent to Free Agency, and the ability to compete with the "Haves" for the missing FA pieces critical to remaining playoff-competitive, year-in, year-out. A winning team seems like a faded, distant memory now.... (and I'm not advocating for matching or beating the contract that the Yankees have offered Tanaka....for most every team except the Yankees and Dodgers, this contract would be insanely risky).
    since 2009 ended we have lost 22 of the 25 players on that 25 man roster.
    Only Joe Mauer, Glen Perkins and Duensing remain

  22. #77
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    Pirates? rebuilding for 20 years....Indians rebuilding for 10+ years and last year went out and spent money,As well they have this guy named Bean he kind of has this wierd idea about using stats and things like that , also they ponied up Cespedes , and the Rays what can 1 say about the Rays....they have a much better manager then ours , they have better scouting department then ours and of course they have a General manager with a pair of balls....
    A's ponied up for Cespedes...yet the Twins paid Mauer significantly more money. Beane has exactly as many ALCS and World Series appearances as Ryan has had.

    The Rays had a nice run no doubt, but have lost in the first round of the playoffs the 3 times. Additionally, I am pretty sure the Twins have the consensus best farm system in baseball...so shouldn't the Twins scouting department reap some of the praise for that? As far as the "GM with a pair of balls" comment, that is not even worth a retort as it is immature and pointless.

  23. #78
    Twins Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    Moderator note: Some of you need to tone down the rhetoric. Every thread here does not need to break down into the Twins not spending according to how you think they should, nor do we need to question the 'balls' of our GM ... you can find better ways to express and argue your points than with disgruntled nothingness.

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  25. #79
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    since 2009 ended we have lost 22 of the 25 players on that 25 man roster.
    Only Joe Mauer, Glen Perkins and Duensing remain
    Yes, let's look at that more closely.

    Players lost:
    Morneau- Injury issues that nobody could predict, honestly, was it worth trying to bring him back this year?
    Alexi Casilla- You arguing the Twins should have kept him around?
    Cabrera- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?
    Crede- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?
    Delmon- Terrible. Twins should have kept him around?
    Gomez-Did absolutely nothing for the Twins. Got Hardy in return (another issue in itself) Late bloomer, yeah the Twins should have kept him around, but hard to argue with them trading him at the time.
    Cuddyer- I looooovvved Cuddyer, however 3 years/32 mil was a bit much. Since leaving one very mediocre year one nice year offensively...provides nothing really in defensive value.
    Kubel- (Actually back on the roster)
    Span- Pretty sure we will all take the Meyer for Span trade at this point and moving forward.
    Punto- I miss him, but does anyone else?
    Harris- Is he in baseball anymore?
    Redmond- Coach now
    Tolbert- Out of baseball
    Buscher- Out of baseball
    Morales- Out of baseball
    Blackburn- Out of baseball (more or less)
    Liriano- Yeah, this one hurts/sucks.
    Baker- Has done zero since leaving the Twins due to injury issues
    Slowey- Other than a few decent starts in Miami (then demoted to bullpen) has done nothing.
    Pavano- Retired.
    Nathan- Stud, no doubt. Hard to justify the Twins giving him 10+ mil a year (esp with Perkins)
    Guerrier- Solid, but has regressed since leaving, Twins were smart not to overpay.
    Mijares- Didn't like letting him go, but mehhhhhh had a rough year last year.
    Keppel- Out of baseball.
    Crain- This was a mistake.


    Other than Liriano (To be frank, I wanted him to stay but he didn't do much of anything his last several years here) Nathan (Not a huge loss with Perkins stepping in) and Crain, I can't really see where the Twins have really messed up letting those other players from 09 go.... in fact, I think because of this it gives em a real nice shot to take a real nice run in 2015/2016/2017 etc.

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  27. #80
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsfan34 View Post
    Steinbrenner is quoted...on his father's tenure at the helm of the Yankees and then, just sort of a 'we could do this if we wanted to'...so be thankful we don't type of sentiments.

    "He didn't have revenue sharing, at least for most of his time," Hank Steinbrenner added. "That's what these people in the sports media don't seem to get. If it wasn't for revenue sharing, we'd have a payroll of $300 million a year if we wanted to. So we're doing this despite having to pay all that revenue sharing."

    ESPN Link here.

    When's the next collective bargaining agreement?

    Their profit for 2012 was $471 million. Not sure that counts TV deal money too. Source: Forbes.

    The rules have to work with the players union, they want their money, and they're not as concerned about competition levels - as the ones getting big checks can sign with any team they want. Whether or not they understand that in order for the Yankees to make so much money, they need the collective US involved in the sport.

    Which, I wonder, the ramifications of increasing ticket prices...say 10 years down the road as the 'gap' widens amongst the 'haves' and 'have nots' even as far as disposable income.

    I haven't gone to as many games as I used to. I do have some more money now as a 'professional', but I prefer to watch most MLB games on TV and pay $15-$20 and sit on the 3rd base dugout for Rough Riders (Rangers AA affiliate) games.

    If tickets were that for the Rangers, I'd probably go to 15-30 games a year. They do just fine without me though.

    The Yankees, like 'em or not, are still abiding by all the rules. Maybe the rules need to be changed?
    I don't think the Rules need to be changed at all. The Yankees have won one title in the last 13 years, during that time the teams to win multiple ones are the Red Sox, Cardinals and Giants have all won multiple world series, I am not sure anyone would claim they have some huge advantage when it comes to payroll (Red Sox...ok...maybe, but for the most part those teams were built from within and shrewdly)

    In fact, as much as I hate the Cards, they are a premier example on how to build a team: Build GREAT in house talent, continue to replenish the farm, and make some smart plays on the FA market (and realize when its time to let people go- Like Pujols, Beltran etc)

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