Thread: Delmon Young's new (old) batting stance

After Wednesday's (3/21/12) game, Delmon Young is now batting .472 with 5 HRs and 19 RBI. Delmon has changed his batting stance at the encouragement of Detroit hitting coach Lloyd McClendon. From the Detroit Free Press:

"Young has resumed using his old stance. It's one in which he stands more upright, with his hands higher, than in the stance he said he adopted in 2009 at the suggestion of the Twins.

After the Tigers acquired Young from the Twins in August, hitting coach Lloyd McClendon encouraged him to return to his old stance if he felt comfortable with it.

'You're not going to change your stance during a pennant race,' Young said. The off-season -- in which he worked with former major league hitting coach Jeff Pentland -- gave him time to switch back to the old stance."

It is not a secret that several players who left the Twins' organization, have had better success elsewhere. And I am not talking about hitters only. Just look at the Mets' roster to see who their ace was last season (and I am not talking about Johan ) Just too much smoke to not be fire, IMO.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Just look at the Mets' roster to see who their ace was last season (and I am not talking about Johan )

Dillon Gee was with the Twins?

Originally Posted by thrylos98

It is not a secret that several players who left the Twins' organization, have had better success elsewhere.

I bet the list of players who left and had less success is longer, and there's a pretty good list of players who have come to the organization and thrived. Maybe there's a problem with hitting/pitching philosophy, but I'm not going to be convinced based on anecdotes. Vavra has been pretty transparent with his hitting philosophy this offseason. Why not address specifically what he says rather than generalize from a really small sample size (which is further muddied by injury in the case of Ortiz and Hardy)?

I can't think of another player currently who has made more modifications in their stance than Delmon. That said, he incorporated the higher hand set in June of last year while with the Twins so that's not new. After that change, he went on to show much more pop than the season's first-half without the high hand set.

There's definitely a difference in his stance. Last year, he showed a much longer spread and was more squat. The lower-half of his stance resembles his 2008 set somewhat where is legs were closer together. To me, the biggest impact is his leg lift. Last year it was much more of a front foot flick than it is now. It is more aggressive and he has a very strong plant resulting a powerful hip display. I can see him having a big season in the power department.

You can compare his swing in 2011 versus his new 2012 one in these videos.

Delmon_Twins.JPG
Delmon_Tigers.JPG

David Ortiz hit with a closed stance up here.

The worst coaching staff in MLB with the king idiot (Gardenhire) leading the way.

Hardy has credited Vavra with helping him regain his form.

The problem with the argument that these anecdotes show some kind of evidence is that you're also never going to hear the opposite kinds of stories. No one is going to bash their current hitting coach and say they were better off under a previous one. If Cuddyer changes his swing and hits worse with the Rockies (a lot of reasons this is unlikely of course) he's not going to be complementing the Twins hitting staff...

That's not to say I don't have concerns about the coaching staff. In fact, I think to have way too much affinity for the types of players the coaches themselves used to be, but that doesn't mean that these anecdotes are good evidence.

Originally Posted by Fanatic Jack

The worst coaching staff in MLB with the king idiot (Gardenhire) leading the way.

Is there any particular reason you're a Twins fan, since you seem to hate everything and everyone associated with the organization in any way?

Originally Posted by WJ

Hardy has credited Vavra with helping him regain his form.

It was also Vavra that Young listened to when he had that big season two years ago.

Originally Posted by Alex

The problem with the argument that these anecdotes show some kind of evidence is that you're also never going to hear the opposite kinds of stories. .

Originally Posted by ben

Maybe there's a problem with hitting/pitching philosophy, but I'm not going to be convinced based on anecdotes.

I was sure that I looked at this issue before... Matter of fact 4 years ago. And this is not anecdotes but data. Here is the data and they were up to the 2007 season.
I am sure that there are additional names to look up till the 2011 season and might do it one of these days. But the conclusion is pretty clear.

I'll remember that day of March 21 for a long time. It was one of the only times I agreed with Jim Souhan.

Jim and Phil Mackey were discussing this topic on Wednesday's Ruesse & Mackey show and they brought up Young's 2010 season. How can one reasonably argue that a coach who was around for a great year and a terrible year get only the blame for the bad year but none of the credit for a great year?

I have no idea how to grade a hitting coach. If Joe Vavra good or bad? I don't know. Players have had terrible years with him on the Twins staff, but guys have also had OUTSTANDING years.

To me, the player needs to take responsibility. It should be up to the player to determine how to stand and swing - and I believe it ultimately is.

I think a hitting coach is there to offer suggestions and give feedback to the player, to create the schedule for the batting cage, to take stats and guard the Dubble Bubble bucket during games, and to get fired when the team needs a jolt.

Mechanics is one thing. Approach at the plate is another. The hitting coach is in charge of the first one. The second one is from the organization, like "hitting the opposite way" with the Twins, which can be enforced by the field manager.

I spent too much time on this...I put together this table of players who left the Twins. I did not include numbers before they were a Twin (i.e. JJ Hardy). I also only used seasons with 150+ AB. I put together a couple charts, but they were just too hard to read due to the number of rows (21). The +# and -# are the number of years before and after the last year with Minnesota.So my conclusion, You can point to one or two examples that would prove either side of the argument. See Ortiz, David or Hardy, JJ. But also take a look at Orlando Hudson, Orlando Cabrara, or Torii Hunter. Also, there are any number of factors could explain the boost or drop in production outside of the players approach at the plate.I just don't see the smoking gun. What do you guys see?EDIT: I had to break up the posts due to character counts - I apologize for the multiple posts.

Name	SLG -5	SLG -4	SLG -3	SLG -2	SLG -1	SLG Last Yr w/ MIN	SLG +1	SLG +2	SLG +3	SLG +4	SLG +5	SLG +6	SLG +7	SLG +8	SLG +9
A.J. Pierzynski*					0.439	0.464	0.41	0.42	0.436	0.403	0.416	0.425	0.388	0.405
Bobby Kielty#					0.484	0.42	0.376	0.37	0.395	0.441
Carlos Gomez					0.36	0.337	0.357	0.403
Chris Gomez						0.354	0.346	0.342	0.391	0.333
Corey Koskie*				0.447	0.452	0.495	0.398	0.49
Cristian Guzman#				0.385	0.365	0.384	0.314	0.466	0.44	0.39	0.361
David Ortiz*						0.5	0.592	0.603	0.604	0.636	0.621	0.507	0.462	0.529	0.554
Doug Mientkiewicz*				0.392	0.45	0.363	0.407	0.411	0.44	0.379
Dustan Mohr					0.433	0.399	0.437	0.466
Henry Blanco						0.368	0.391	0.419	0.382

Name	SLG -5	SLG -4	SLG -3	SLG -2	SLG -1	SLG Last Yr w/ MIN	SLG +1	SLG +2	SLG +3	SLG +4	SLG +5	SLG +6	SLG +7	SLG +8	SLG +9
J.J. Hardy						0.394	0.491
Jacque Jones*			0.511	0.464	0.427	0.438	0.499	0.4
Jason Bartlett				0.335	0.393	0.361	0.361	0.49	0.35	0.307
Juan Castro					0.386	0.308	0.285
Luis Castillo#						0.37	0.372	0.352	0.305	0.346	0.267
Luis Rivas				0.392	0.381	0.432	0.311
Luis Rodriguez#					0.383	0.303	0.351	0.26
Orlando Cabrera						0.43	0.354	0.321	0.352
Orlando Hudson#						0.372	0.352
Shannon Stewart			0.47	0.447	0.388	0.368	0.394	0.303
Torii Hunter	0.524	0.451	0.475	0.452	0.49	0.505	0.466	0.508	0.464	0.429