Printable View
Nobody gets the 75% necessary. Biggio comes closest.
I'm sure there will be all sorts of people wringing their hands over nobody being elected, but I just don't see it being a big deal. There will be elections next year when Maddux, Thomas and Glavine become eligible.
I'm disappointed Morris did not get in but I'm also not suprised no one was elected.
Biggio will get in eventually, he has the luxury of never being suspected of PED use and has the numbers to get in anyway. I think this is a case of the writers trying to differentiate between "Hall of Famers" and "First-Ballot Hall of Famers".
I'm a little surprised that nobody got in. I think that the writers often feel obligated to induct at least one player every year.
I'm actually glad that Morris seems to have pretty much retained all of his support from last year. I thought he might actually lose some votes with a number of voters sending in blank ballots or not voting at all. I think his votes will go up next year again, but whether he'll quite make 75% is certainly up in the air. Going to be excruciatingly close for Morris in his final year on the ballot, I'm sure.
Since he only went up 1% of last year and with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot next year I don't see Morris gain the 43 votes need to get in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Crikket
Biggio is the only non-steroid tainted player who was up that merits consideration.
I don't mind people sending in blank ballots IF they truly believe that no one is Hall of Fame worthy. Of course, i would have voted for the full ten this year, so I think it's crazy, but I think it's a fair vote. I think it's way better than not sending in a ballot at all.
Along with Maddux, Glavine and Thomas, next year's ballot will add Jeff Kent and Mike Mussina.
I agree that it's going to be tough for Morris, but it does seem like when a guy hits his final year on the ballot, there are a certain number of writers who think, "I don't want to be the guy responsible for him not getting in," and will vote for the guy when they haven't in the past. If he had backslid significantly this year, it would have told me he had no shot next year. But he didn't, so... maybe.
Biggio may have a shot, too, if you take in to account some number of voters will never vote for anyone on their first ballot and he could see his numbers increase accordingly.
I didn't mention Kent and Mussina, Seth, because I guess I just see them as being a rung below the other three new guys next year. I see the strong first year class, with guys who have little, if any, connection to PEDs, probably being more problematic for guys who would be stretching to get the 5% to stay on the ballot than for guys like Morris and Biggio. I could be wrong.
Some of the steroid apologists often seem pretty indignant and upset that their guys are not getting the votes. I wonder if there are any pro-steroid era voters who are withholding votes for the assumed clean players simply because if they can't get their guys in, (Bonds, Clemons, etc.) they refuse to help get anyone in.
I don't have a huge issue with the results. I'd like Morris, Murphy and Raines to get in, but they are much more borderline than someone like Blyleven or Dawson who just barely made it. I'm sure Biggio will get in too, but being a 1st vote entrant is a pretty big honor, I don't know that he deserves that title. Some voters are probably thinking he needs to wait a year, just as they did with Roberto Alomar. Though I don't know that Biggio is totally in the clear of the steroid stain. Fair or not, people are going to remember that he did play for the Astros, a team with a bad PED rep, just ask his long-time teammates, Jeff Bagwell and Ken Caminiti. Oh wait....
If Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens aren't HoFers then I don't know who is.
I agree with you Seth, but I have an extremely difficult time believing that to be the case. There is absolutely no reason not to vote Biggio, arguably one of the best 2B ever to play the game with no link to PED. Whether it is admitted or not, those that sent in blank ballots were looking to get publicity. I believe the writers should consider it a privilege to vote. Both the blank ballots and non-voters should be ashamed for not taking a stance and voting one way or another. (I don't buy the non-vote as taking a stance. To me it is a cop out). The BBWA has screwed this up in many ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Stohs
I don't think Morris is Hall-worthy. I am one of those against the "Hall of very good".
I agree with JC--I view Mussina and Kent as being a step below Maddox and Glavine. In fact, I view Mussina as a step below Morris--I hope Morris makes it next year--if I am not mistaken he has most wins in the 80s--that should get him in.
As to the Rocket and Barry--I have mixed feelings--they are both PED users--but their stats are so superior (I view Barry as the second best player I have seen in my life--behind only Willie Mays) that they should get in anyway. If neither Barry or Roger ever gets in--the HOF will have credibility issues.
Well there you have it. The BBHOF has officially jumped the shark. Seriously, look at some of the ballots and their explanations and tell me that a collection of regulars from TD couldn't come up with better results.
Jack Morris to me is a classic borderline case. I have no problem with him not making it, but I won't complain if he does.
Biggio's exclusion is just absurd. Part of it is the "first-ballot hall of famer" nonsense, which has to stop. This tiered approach to induction is just silly self-absorption on the part of the voters. Either you think a guy is worthy or you don't. But don't withhold support because you think he's worthy, but not THAT worthy.
Part of it is the guilt-by-association with PED's. Look at this explanation from one voter:
I spoke to several writers about their ballots and found that two had voted for Biggio and two others hadn’t because of a suspicion in baseball circles that he used steroids. When Bagwell was eligible initially a couple of years ago, I voted for him, then was told he was a steroids guy. Trusting the information, I haven’t voted for him since.
Maybe the two writers who told me they voted for Biggio will come to a similar conclusion before the next vote. Those writers said they also voted for Piazza, which is troubling because I don’t know if there’s anyone in baseball who doesn’t think Piazza used steroids.
Is that where we are now? Disqualifying guys based on rumor and suspicion?
Yes. That's exactly where we are and, unfortunately, it's where we should expect to stay for many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack
Well, not exactly. Here is my take:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Crikket
(copying and pasting from the MLB HOF website, bold for emphasis is mine : )
Since 1936, the Baseball Writers' Association of America has held the exclusive voting privilege to consider recently retired players for the National Baseball Hall of Fame
Who gets into the HOF is a matter and responsibility of the HOF board that delegated that privilege to the BBWAA and the Veterans' Committee. I think that if that idiocy with the writers' voting continues (a vote for Sele, really?) the HOF should and probably will revoke that privilege and find another way of inducting retired players.
In 1936 there was barely TV and the writers were the only ones who had the ability to see the players in a regular basis. In 2013 this is not the case, so the need for the writers to be the ones voting should go the way of its (almost) co-current alcohol prohibition
That simple.
---Well, it will be interesting to see how long it does stay there. Will the voters who refused to consider Biggio because of the era he played in be consistent and refuse to consider Frank Thomas in 2014? And Griffey Jr. in 2016? And Derek Jeter when his day comes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Crikket
I don't see any way the HOF Board pulls the voting from the BBWAA, thry. Not happening... especially not over one season of not electing anyone. Nobody was elected in 1996 and the walls didn't come crumbling down.
I personally think that, eventually, most of the PED users will get elected. If it takes a few more years than it would have without their PED use, well... I wouldn't have made them wait, but hey, I can live with that being some kind of penance for the worst offenders, I guess. If it also means some of the cheaters who weren't quite as dominant (like Palmeiro for instance) not getting in at all, I'm not going to shed tears for that either.
I just think people are getting all worked up over nothing... or very little. I dont think the BBWAA should be the morality police and I suspect that in a few years, most of them will come around to thinking the same way.
If, in the mean time, a few of the clean (as far as we know) peers of the known PED users end up going in first, there's probably some justice in that, too. It's not like these guys got lifetime bans. If the mentality changes over time, as I think it will, the best of them will still get in eventually.
Here is part of the issue I have with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Crikket
- Amphetamines are PEDs and now verboten like steroids
- Hank Aaron is on the record in a televised interview with Bob Costas (this one) admitting that he has used amphetamines (i.e. PEDs)
- Several of the guys who were not voted today were never convicted or admitted to taking PEDs; a couple of them actually proven innocent in courts of law.
So the writers are going on a crusade based on I don't know what, forgetting the "innocent until proven guilty" including the ones who were proven innocent, while a. ignoring admitted PED users already in the Hall (Hank Aaron) and b. (one idiot) voting for Aaron Sele the same time.
Hypocrites if you ask me.
Do I like Clemens and Bonds? No. They are A%$Iols. Ty Cobb was probably a bigger one than them. Do they all deserve to be in the Hall? Heck yeah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack
For an ******* like Murray Chass the answer is yes. Looking at the two guys most associated with 'probably used' are Bagwell and Piazza. Jeff Bagwell for a third year improved his numbers. It wouldn't surprise me if there's going to be more no votes based on career longevity and not hitting any milestone numbers than steroid suspicions. Mike Piazza first time on ballot earned 57%. Too low a number, but not end of the world like some seem to think. Both imo are going to be voted in by the writer within the next five to six years, if not sooner.
Yeah a bunch of these guys will probably go in evenutally. But the guys who were never even accused of any wrongdoing getting penalized is stupid and wrong.
And the voters righteous indignation and finger-wagging over PED's would be a lot more credible if they had put up more of a stink about, say, Gaylord Perry. He was a known, avowed and shameless cheater.