J.J. Doing Well

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10-06-2012, 02:24 PM
Curt

J.J. Doing Well

"Injury prone" J.J. Hardy led major league shortstops in innings, putouts, assists, and double plays. Baltimore shortstops committed six errors all season long (Hardy played all but 44 innings). Next best were Seattle and Arizona with ten. The major league average was 19 errors and Twins' shortstops had 25.

Hardy's stint with the Twins in 2010 wasn't so wonderful as that but, that year, he committed his first error in his 30th game and committed only 3 in his first 63 games. He then committed 8 more in the final two months of the season.
10-06-2012, 05:11 PM
greengoblinrulz

always been a Hardy fan & still am but errors by a shortstop can be extrememly overrated as 'official scoring' in baseball is a complete joke.
10-06-2012, 07:20 PM
one_eyed_jack

I'm happy for JJ. Good player and a good guy. I was fine with the decision not to bring him back, but he sure would have been a lot better than anything else we've had at that position. That said, even with JJ Hardy instead of the guys we've been putting out there, the Twins are still a pretty bad baseball team.

Hopefully the ex-Twin trio of JJ Hardy, Jim Thome and Lew Ford (!) can do with the O'd what they couldn't do with the Twins and beat the Yankees in the playoffs. I know that all 3 of those guys took those defeats pretty hard when they were here.
10-06-2012, 08:33 PM
mnfireman

I think that having Hardy in the line-up everyday would have been a good thing. Span, Revere, Mauer, Willingham, Morneau, Doumit, Plouffe, Hardy & Carroll would have been offensively and defensively superior to Florimon, Escobar, Casilla, Valencia, Burroughs, etc...
10-06-2012, 11:40 PM
jokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curt

"Injury prone" J.J. Hardy led major league shortstops in innings, putouts, assists, and double plays. Baltimore shortstops committed six errors all season long (Hardy played all but 44 innings). Next best were Seattle and Arizona with ten. The major league average was 19 errors and Twins' shortstops had 25.

Hardy's stint with the Twins in 2010 wasn't so wonderful as that but, that year, he committed his first error in his 30th game and committed only 3 in his first 63 games. He then committed 8 more in the final two months of the season.

Injury-prone, HA! The Twins knew they were acquiring a guy from the Brewers coming off of an injury that would take a year to completely heal. They should be completely embarrassed and held accountable as an organization for what Hardy has accomplished the last two years. Even this season's "awful" plate numbers, combined with the defensive stats you cited illustrate the level of cluelessness the Twins demonstrated in their perceived value of Hardy (and Gardy's input played a part in that perception, too).
10-06-2012, 11:41 PM
jokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

I'm happy for JJ. Good player and a good guy. I was fine with the decision not to bring him back, but he sure would have been a lot better than anything else we've had at that position. That said, even with JJ Hardy instead of the guys we've been putting out there, the Twins are still a pretty bad baseball team.

Hopefully the ex-Twin trio of JJ Hardy, Jim Thome and Lew Ford (!) can do with the O'd what they couldn't do with the Twins and beat the Yankees in the playoffs. I know that all 3 of those guys took those defeats pretty hard when they were here.

Getting rid of Hardy for nothing, and leaving an embarrassing MIF of Nishi/Casilla/Tolbert/Cuddyer !?! should have gotten everyone who had their fingerprints on the deal fired forthwith. As I've stated before, Hardy may not be the "rangiest" SS, but his UZR ratings since 2005 have him ranked as #1, a credit to his strong arm and consistent ability to gobble up every thing in front of him. Even when he has a down year at the plate like this one, he still hits for a level of power for a MI that no one else in the Twins org. has ever attained and a down offensive year has little to no effect on his defense.

Now, those 3 guys you mention are gone and playing on a playoff team and what do the Twins have to show for getting rid of them? Nada. Lew Ford obviously makes no difference, but people forget, besides Hardy, the Twins gave away Thome for $20000 and Baltimore demonstrated how clueless the Twins were in that bonehead move when they acquired Thome this year by giving two of their Top Ten prospects to the Phillies. Hardy for Nishi/Hoey was monumentally bad, giving away Thome for nothing wasn't all that far behind.
10-07-2012, 01:10 AM
one_eyed_jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokin

Now, those 3 guys you mention are gone and playing on a playoff team and what do the Twins have to show for getting rid of them? Nada. Lew Ford obviously makes no difference, but people forget, besides Hardy, the Twins gave away Thome for $20000 and Baltimore demonstrated how clueless the Twins were in that bonehead move when they acquired Thome this year by giving two of their Top Ten prospects to the Phillies. Hardy for Nishi/Hoey was monumentally bad, giving away Thome for nothing wasn't all that far behind.

---OK, I can see railing on the Twins for the whole Hardy thing, but the Thome deal? Really? He had a full no-trade clase that he didn't waive until late in the season, and then he had to be put through waivers, where he was claimed by Cleveland. Not to mention he was past 40 and it wasn't at all clear he would play beyond 2011.

Baseball America had Simon and Lino ranked 18 and 21 among Orioles prospects after 2011, so it's not like they gave up top-tier minor league talent here.
10-10-2012, 12:16 AM
jokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokin

Now, those 3 guys you mention are gone and playing on a playoff team and what do the Twins have to show for getting rid of them? Nada. Lew Ford obviously makes no difference, but people forget, besides Hardy, the Twins gave away Thome for $20000 and Baltimore demonstrated how clueless the Twins were in that bonehead move when they acquired Thome this year by giving two of their Top Ten prospects to the Phillies. Hardy for Nishi/Hoey was monumentally bad, giving away Thome for nothing wasn't all that far behind.

---OK, I can see railing on the Twins for the whole Hardy thing, but the Thome deal? Really? He had a full no-trade clase that he didn't waive until late in the season, and then he had to be put through waivers, where he was claimed by Cleveland. Not to mention he was past 40 and it wasn't at all clear he would play beyond 2011.

Baseball America had Simon and Lino ranked 18 and 21 among Orioles prospects after 2011, so it's not like they gave up top-tier minor league talent here.

Kyle Simon had an outstanding year, getting promoted to AA and he just turned 22 on August 23. In AA he had a WHIP of 0.671 and ERA of 1.42, with outstanding control and a confusing delivery that hitters can't get a bead on. Gabriel Lino is only 19, a catcher, a big kid with power and a strong arm, already playing A ball.

I think the Phillies made out a lot better than the Twins did. What do you think?
10-10-2012, 12:27 AM
Nick Nelson

Ah, the myth of injury-prone...
10-10-2012, 09:30 AM
SpiritofVodkaDave

Funny, no mention of his .671 OP 81OPS+ or his .282 OBP.

I like Hardy and he is obviously is better then anything the Twins have put out at SS the past two years, but I am not so sure that I would want him here currently on his 3 year 21 mil contract.
10-10-2012, 09:36 AM
Curt

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Funny, no mention of his .671 OP 81OPS+ or his .282 OBP.

Compared to the league average for shortstops of .674? Or the Twins shortstops' .580?
10-10-2012, 01:10 PM
nicksaviking

When Hardy was being moved, one of the rumored points of contention was that Gardy and Vavra were frustrated that Hardy resisted hitting to all fields and Hardy was equally frustrated that they wanted him to do so. Later Hardy seemed to try to come off of the dispute by saying he learned a few things from the Twins batting philosophy.

I counter that Hardy was right the whole time as demonstrated by Josh Willingham and Trevor Plouffe. The Twins finally understood that power in Target Field is going to come from right handed hitters who yank the ball over the left field wall. The Twins were two years late in subscribing to this theory; had they not been stubborn, Hardy may have been more comfortable at the plate and produced as was expected of him and the Twins may have decided to keep him, or at the very least, they could have gotten a better deal in return for him.
10-10-2012, 02:45 PM
SpiritofVodkaDave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curt

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Funny, no mention of his .671 OP 81OPS+ or his .282 OBP.

Compared to the league average for shortstops of .674? Or the Twins shortstops' .580?

You apparently didn't read the 2nd half of my post.

I like Hardy and he is obviously is better then anything the Twins have put out at SS the past two years, but I am not so sure that I would want him here currently on his 3 year 21 mil contract.
10-10-2012, 03:16 PM
Boom Boom

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curt

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Funny, no mention of his .671 OP 81OPS+ or his .282 OBP.

Compared to the league average for shortstops of .674? Or the Twins shortstops' .580?

You apparently didn't read the 2nd half of my post.

I like Hardy and he is obviously is better then anything the Twins have put out at SS the past two years, but I am not so sure that I would want him here currently on his 3 year 21 mil contract.

I think two more years of Hardy (he's burned up one of those contract years already) at $7 million per isn't bad value at all.

According to Fangraphs (and admittedly I'm not a huge fan of this statistic) he was worth $12.5 million this year, WITH his .671 OPS.
10-10-2012, 04:19 PM
nicksaviking

The Twins obvioulsy seemed fine with the idea of paying Nishioka and Carroll about that sum combined. Another Twins philosophy I hope gets phased out. Obviously the Twins were well on their way to writing Nishioka's salary as a loss, but too often they prefer to pay multiple replacement level players a small sum instead of paying a larger amount for a better player and filling the other roster spot with a AAA player/free agent willing to play for league minimum or near league minimum. J.J. Hardy and Scott Diamond are a better use of funds then say Jamey Carroll and Jason Marquis.
10-10-2012, 05:53 PM
one_eyed_jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokin

Kyle Simon had an outstanding year, getting promoted to AA and he just turned 22 on August 23. In AA he had a WHIP of 0.671 and ERA of 1.42, with outstanding control and a confusing delivery that hitters can't get a bead on. Gabriel Lino is only 19, a catcher, a big kid with power and a strong arm, already playing A ball.

I think the Phillies made out a lot better than the Twins did. What do you think?

---I think that you're either taking controversial positions with the intention of sparking debate or a certain other poster who has a penchant for selectively acknowledging facts and over-emphasizing trivialities in support of the ridiculous has hacked your account and is posting under your name.
10-10-2012, 06:05 PM
jokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokin

Kyle Simon had an outstanding year, getting promoted to AA and he just turned 22 on August 23. In AA he had a WHIP of 0.671 and ERA of 1.42, with outstanding control and a confusing delivery that hitters can't get a bead on. Gabriel Lino is only 19, a catcher, a big kid with power and a strong arm, already playing A ball.

I think the Phillies made out a lot better than the Twins did. What do you think?

---I think that you're either taking controversial positions with the intention of sparking debate or a certain other poster who has a penchant for selectively acknowledging facts and over-emphasizing trivialities in support of the ridiculous has hacked your account and is posting under your name.

So I can take your response to accept that the Twins pathetic acceptance of a $20000 pittance for a fan favorite, an ambassador to baseball, who still had the fire in the belly and with still something left in the tank was better than what they could have received at the deadline in 2011- or what the Orioles received this year- two prospects who have pretty decent major league potential.
10-12-2012, 11:37 AM
SpiritofVodkaDave

The FO deserves plenty of blame for a number of things, how they handled the Thome "trade" is not one of them.
10-13-2012, 04:34 AM
jokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

The FO deserves plenty of blame for a number of things, how they handled the Thome "trade" is not one of them.

Wow, convincing and conclusive evidence presented that "trading" a fan favorite for $20,000 is much better than trading him when he significantly more value earlier in 2011 before the deadline or trading him this year for two up-and-coming, and badly-needed, prospects.
10-13-2012, 08:34 AM
one_eyed_jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokin

Kyle Simon had an outstanding year, getting promoted to AA and he just turned 22 on August 23. In AA he had a WHIP of 0.671 and ERA of 1.42, with outstanding control and a confusing delivery that hitters can't get a bead on. Gabriel Lino is only 19, a catcher, a big kid with power and a strong arm, already playing A ball.

I think the Phillies made out a lot better than the Twins did. What do you think?

---I think that you're either taking controversial positions with the intention of sparking debate or a certain other poster who has a penchant for selectively acknowledging facts and over-emphasizing trivialities in support of the ridiculous has hacked your account and is posting under your name.

So I can take your response to accept that the Twins pathetic acceptance of a $20000 pittance for a fan favorite, an ambassador to baseball, who still had the fire in the belly and with still something left in the tank was better than what they could have received at the deadline in 2011- or what the Orioles received this year- two prospects who have pretty decent major league potential.

---Dude, stop it, you're just being antagonistic here.

Thome had a no-trade clause that he did not waive until August. He did not have one this year. So unlike the Phillies in 2012, the Twins could not have just traded him to whoever they wanted at the deadline in 2011. They worked out a trade with Cleveland, who claimed him on waivers. There's a massive difference in those 2 situations.

There are plenty of legit reasons to rail on the Twins front office. There's no need to manufacture them by molding facts to fit a narrative, which is what you're doing here.