Thread: Appel not signing?

Originally Posted by Rosterman

Can a player still increase their signing bonus by taking it long-term, like say $10 million over three years with a guarantee that they go to spring training and added immediately to the 40-man, et al? Or was that thrown out the door with the new agreements?

thrown out...no major league contracts

Originally Posted by thrylos98

I just wish that NCAA was fair and treated baseball players like football players so Appel would lose his eligibility for hiring a professional agent. If that were the case, the only place he could play ball in the US is Independent or beer leagues. No college kids should be able to influence the integrity of the draft. If he does not sign and goes to College for another season and gets hurt, he is up the proverbial creek. So it is silly not to do it, since $3.4 M is pretty high with the new standards...

Technically, Boras is not his official agent until AFTER he signs. He's an "advisor", a messed up system that's been there for years.

This could be the first Matt Harrington of the new system.

Gausman isn't going to sign as well.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Gausman isn't going to sign as well.

No way, that's just negotiating tactic. No one goes back to college to win the college WS. He'll sign.

Originally Posted by gunnarthor

Appel would probably be the biggest loser in that situation but it could work out for him. He could be drafted by the Cubs #2 and get 6m or so and then haunt the Pirates for a decade.

The Pirates will be losers too, if they don't sign Appel. They'll lose a year of development time of a potential top prospect and, as a team pretty reliant on its farm system to develop players, that would hurt. True, they'll get a reimbursement pick next year but that still doesn't make up for their loss this year. It just mitigates it some. That's why you don't see teams blowing top picks in one year, hoping to get a better pick in the next years draft.

And, while I think it's a stupid idea, going over slot for Appel isn't crazy, depending on how the Pirates view him. I think most Twins would be ok with the idea of losing the rights to a Levi Michael type for a true ace. (esp since the Pirates have another first round supp pick to play with).

Thats if you think he's an ace, which I have my doubts.... which others do as well.

Originally Posted by Badsmerf

Thats if you think he's an ace, which I have my doubts.... which others do as well.

True.

As a Twins fan, I think we should hope that Appal and Gausman don't sign - it'll give more depth to next years (so far underwhelming) draft. But I still think both sign.

If the Pirates can't sign Appel, it has another side effect - they have $4M left over to spend, possible at the trade deadline. If Morneau was hitting a little better, that's the kind of news I could get pretty excited about.

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

If the Pirates can't sign Appel, it has another side effect - they have $4M left over to spend, possible at the trade deadline. If Morneau was hitting a little better, that's the kind of news I could get pretty excited about.

Well, they have that money and more that they can use, but they would have ~$4M to use toward international free agents that can come around or toward other picks they have not signed. That number is toward drafting/signing new players as a limit by MLB, not something set forth by their ownership, which would reflect on the MLB payroll.

Originally Posted by biggentleben

Well, they have that money and more that they can use, but they would have ~$4M to use toward international free agents that can come around or toward other picks they have not signed. That number is toward drafting/signing new players as a limit by MLB, not something set forth by their ownership, which would reflect on the MLB payroll.

I think it's the reverse, actually. That $4M (less, actually, since that number assumed they went 5% over the pool limit) can not be used for other draft picks; if Appel doesn't sign, his slotted pool value disappears and can't be used for other picks. They also have a hard $2.9M cap for international signings regardless (as do all teams this year). The money that is not spent on the draft or international signings, however, could be offered to a free agent or used as a pot sweetener in a trade. The money comes out of a different pocket, so to speak, so it is not a straight transfer over, but the net effect is the same. Kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I was mistaken that it cannot be used in international, but it is draft bonus pool usable for the entire pool. There's a limit on how much you can use in the first 10 picks, but if they chose to spend that $4M on various other picks it's perfectly fine, as long as they stay within their top 10 pick limit.

Originally Posted by biggentleben

I was mistaken that it cannot be used in international, but it is draft bonus pool usable for the entire pool. There's a limit on how much you can use in the first 10 picks, but if they chose to spend that $4M on various other picks it's perfectly fine, as long as they stay within their top 10 pick limit.

That's not true. If you don't sign a pick from the first 10 rounds you lose that specific draft pick's slot in your draft pool. You can't pick someone, not sign them, and then use that money elsewhere. What you can do is draft someone, sign them below slot, and then use the leftover slot money for another pick.

The problem with this CBA is that they should let teams that were below .500 spend a little extra on draft/international without penalty... that's just me at least. That said, this situation is pretty interesting. Appel may be upset, but there really isn't much he can do about it. He's taking a huge risk by not signing. Here's the thing. If they guy was Bryce Harper or Steven Strasburg, I have no doubt in my mind that teams would be willing to potentially forfeit a pick next year to sign him overslot. But he's not one of those guys. He's likely to be a good MLB pitcher, but I doubt he's playing in Pittsburg come September. The Pirates would be wise to play hardball with him.

Originally Posted by drjim

That's not true. If you don't sign a pick from the first 10 rounds you lose that specific draft pick's slot in your draft pool. You can't pick someone, not sign them, and then use that money elsewhere. What you can do is draft someone, sign them below slot, and then use the leftover slot money for another pick.

And (i'm not sure about this but) I think they later round picks have a cap of like $100,000. So there are fewer and fewer real good options on where to spend that money.

Ultimately, I think Appel will sign, but if he doesn't, we have a true rarity: a competetive Pirates team with money to spend. blink. blink.

Originally Posted by drjim

That's not true. If you don't sign a pick from the first 10 rounds you lose that specific draft pick's slot in your draft pool. You can't pick someone, not sign them, and then use that money elsewhere. What you can do is draft someone, sign them below slot, and then use the leftover slot money for another pick.

Yep, I mistook that in reading the CBA.

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

And (i'm not sure about this but) I think they later round picks have a cap of like $100,000. So there are fewer and fewer real good options on where to spend that money.

Ultimately, I think Appel will sign, but if he doesn't, we have a true rarity: a competetive Pirates team with money to spend. blink. blink.

Later rounds have a slot of $100,000, not a cap. So you can sign a guy for $300k and that counts $200k against your cap. However, if you sign a guy for under $100k in those rounds, you don't get to bank the difference. Only in the first 10 rounds can you bank the savings of the slot number.

That is why some teams (like the Blue Jays), took seniors in rounds 4-10, signed them for $10k or less and then used the savings to pay above slot for some early picks as well as some picks after round 10.

Originally Posted by StormJH1

This is fascinating to me. Didn't they turn down preliminary offers from Houston of around $6 million? What exactly was the point of driving a hard bargain with the teams at the top of the draft board, if the teams further down below CAN'T offer more money by the rules?

I'm sure the thought was that Appel would either go #1 or #2, so why agree to take less than the slot value of the #2 pick (the $6.2M the Twins gave Buxton)? That was rational enough. But when the Astros picked option C (Correa), Boras' strategy blew up in his face: the Twins though Buxton was the better talent, the Mariners wanted Zunino, the O's and Royals scouts preferred Gausman and Zimmer, the Cubs always wanted Almora. Before they new it, more than $6M had turned into less than $4M.

What is not rational is to risk this kid's future on the slim chance that he'll be picked higher next year. Appel wasn't the consensus top pitcher in a weak draft class, so why would they think he'd do better in a deeper pool? Imagine that next year's draft class has three pitchers of the same ability as Gausman, Zimmer and uninjured Giolito. Wouldn't you take one of the younger guys who had less mileage on his arm? His age is going to be a reason to pass on him next year. This holdout isn't about what's best for Mark Appel.

Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan

The problem with this CBA is that they should let teams that were below .500 spend a little extra on draft/international without penalty... that's just me at least. That said, this situation is pretty interesting. Appel may be upset, but there really isn't much he can do about it. He's taking a huge risk by not signing. Here's the thing. If they guy was Bryce Harper or Steven Strasburg, I have no doubt in my mind that teams would be willing to potentially forfeit a pick next year to sign him overslot. But he's not one of those guys. He's likely to be a good MLB pitcher, but I doubt he's playing in Pittsburg come September. The Pirates would be wise to play hardball with him.

The teams that do poorly the previous season do get to spend more - the Twins had the highest pool available this year ($12M) because of their poor record in 2011 and the number of compensatory picks they had. The New York Yankees had a total of ~$4M, and the Los Angeles Angels only had $1.6M.

In future years, the same will also be true for international signings - the size of the pool available will vary depending on record. This first year, to start things off, they just made everybody even.

Originally Posted by sbknudson

The teams that do poorly the previous season do get to spend more - the Twins had the highest pool available this year ($12M) because of their poor record in 2011 and the number of compensatory picks they had. The New York Yankees had a total of ~$4M, and the Los Angeles Angels only had $1.6M.

In future years, the same will also be true for international signings - the size of the pool available will vary depending on record. This first year, to start things off, they just made everybody even.

They had the highest pool because they had the most picks. They weren't given extra money to go out and sign a few guys overslot... If they were, they'd like have picked up a couple of the later round higher ceiling guys they drafted. That's my point. I'd think that teams that finish under certain record shoudl automaticaly get an extra couple of mil to the draft bonus pool and an extra mil for international free agents... small market teams like TB should get a boost too.

Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan

They had the highest pool because they had the most picks. They weren't given extra money to go out and sign a few guys overslot... If they were, they'd like have picked up a couple of the later round higher ceiling guys they drafted. That's my point. I'd think that teams that finish under certain record shoudl automaticaly get an extra couple of mil to the draft bonus pool and an extra mil for international free agents... small market teams like TB should get a boost too.

Their pool was highest also because each round they picked second - based entirely on their record. And as I said, in future years international signing pools will also be based on record. Another part of the new CBA does also provide for small market and low revenue teams to get additional draft picks (and hence additional pool money).

Everything you asked for is either in place or is being added to the system already.