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Darin Mastoianni could be the 4th OF and Revere could be playing everyday in Rochester and figuring out ways to get on base, whether it be bunting, taking pitches, etc. I gotta say, this makes a lot more sense to me than him hanging around the dugout giving high 5s and occasionally replacing Willingham in left field. Or worse, tempting Gardy to start him in right field.
I like that idea better. Revere is still a little younger than Benson, Parmelee and Dozier who we obviously believe need to play every day. Mastroianni already was optioned, so they couldn't promote him again until Opening Day. The other thing is the Mastroianni can play 3 OF spots and he's been playing mainly 2B since he got optioned.
Rochester OF of Revere, Benson and Tosoni sounds good to me too. With Wilkin Ramirez and Matt Carson getting some time and DHing.
Is Revere at best a 4th outfielder who will be used as late inning defensive and baserunning replacement? If so, he stays in the bigs. If not, and if you want to increase his value as a starting MLB OF then you may want to send him down to learn some things. I cringe at your option though. The Twins should want to bring the best 25 north and DM is not one of those, period, end of sentence.
Fantastic idea all around. Revere could definitely benefit from playing everyday and focusing on a few skill sets.
His speed would be missed, but if Mastroianni was #4... Darin can steal base also!
I like his defense and his speed. They aren't exactly missing out on much if he's mainly a pinch runner and late inning defensive sub till an outfielder gets hurt. It's just kind of an embarrassing way to use a former first round pick.
I agree with Harrison. Having a speed merchant and a fly ball defensive wiz is a greater than great plus on a team. Revere can get plenty of coaching about bunting on the Twins, he can spell Span some days as well as replace Willingham in left or Parmalee or Doumit in right field in tight ball games. He can be a stolen base threat in the late innings of tight games as a pinch runner. He can also be used as a bunter in tight games to get a ball down and put pressure on the defense to get him out as he moves a runner along. He can create havoc. Plus, he has hit at all minor league levels. If he hits the cutoff man with his throws on singles and doubles, he should be fine.
I think that is the key and the assumption of most here that he is a 4th outfielder. He has some important strengths but the arm and lack of any power have people questioning his upside. I would like to see him stay and I think he can get a fair amount of action filling in for Span and Willingham, as well as late game replacement in the outfield and as a pinch runner.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverslugger
If Ben Revere is the best candidate for the 4th OF role, then he should be the pick. I'm not sure much more seasoning is necessary as he is what he is. He is fast, has a knack for making a fantastic defensive play, has no arm, can hit a little, but without any pop, does not walk and seasoning from what I have seen does not teach patience at the plate. He is more suited to start the year as a back up than Benson orMastroianni. Benson has to start as his upside is pretty big and he has a chance to be an impact player. Mastroianni is not an answer, he is AAA material. Although Revere was a late round 1st round pick, he was more projected to be a 2nd-3rd round pick, but he is definitely not a bust. The MLB draft is for the most part a crap shoot. The Twins were criticized for picking Revere in the 1st round, but he has value and he has not disappointed. A 4th outfielder is better than a minor league washout.
I had the same thought. Given Span's and to a smaller extent Morneau's uncertain health outlook, Revere will likely be needed on an everyday basis at some point this year. I wonder if he will perform better in that role following regular play in Rochester. They certainly could give him 4-8 weeks in AAA.
Here's the thing: Revere never mastered AAA. He only had 141 plate appearances there and was rushed to the majors last year because of all the injuries. Through AA, his OBP was never lower than .371. Read that last sentence again.
In his short time in AAA, it was just .338 and then it went to .310 in the majors. With that kind of OBP, he's just a fourth outfielder. But if it gets anywhere near the level it was, he's an elite leadoff hitter who plays killer defense. I don't know why we would throw away that future just to have a slight upgrade at a roster spot that means next to nothing to the success of this team.
By no means am I insulting Ben Revere. Juan Pierre has a lifetime .345 OBP and from what I have seen he projects to be pretty much the same kind of player, It is definite that he will have to hit, hit, and hit. It is no guarantee that Revere can match Pierre's production. The Sabremetricians seemingly think Pierre is a worthless player. Revere will have to pick up his game a bit. As far as throwing away his upside... are we killing the next Rickey Henderson? Are we inhibiting the next Tim Raines?
Juan Pierre was a very good player the first 4-5 years of his career. When he got the big contract that free agency brought, he was way overpaid for that style of play, especially once the SB and the OBP started to drop. I think if Revere can be what Pierre was the first 5-6 years of his career, that would be great.
It would be great, I hope it happens. But it is theoretical.
I completely understand where everyone is coming from on this topic, to the seasoned analytical fan this definitely makes sense for the team.
The thing that tears me apart is the fact that Ben was the main reason for me (and I'm sure many other fans) To get exited to watch a game in last years dismal season. Nobody can refute that this kid can single handedly make a twins game exciting to watch.
I understand that he could definitely learn in triple-a but how can you keep a guy like that out of the camera? I guess this has got to count for something but makes this a tough topic.
Whoa, whoa, whoa...The next Rickey Henderson? The guy who had 297 home runs and a .401 OBP and an .820 OPS in his career? THAT Rickey Henderson? I'm pretty sure we're not killing the next Rickey Henderson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge
And Tim Raines? 170 home runs and a .385 OBP with an .810 OPS? Nope. Not killing the next one of him either.
Revere's career OBP is .305 and his career OPS is .606. Also, he is currently 297 HRs behind Henderson and 170 HRs behind Raines for his career. Opposing outfielders started playing so far in last year that opposing teams had to start doing extra laundry for the infielders uniforms to get the tobacco stains off their backs. And let's not even talk about assists...or rather, let's talk about them. After Thome got traded last year and came back to Target Field as a member of the Indians, he was on second base when a ball got hit to Revere; JIM THOME scored EASILY on a ball that Revere had to charge.
I like watching Revere run around the bases and the OF, and he made a few really A+++ catches last year. But I think the fields in Williamsport, PA annually see hitters with more power and better arms. The idea that it somehow is a travesty that he might only play in the last two innings of a game is really baffling to me. He should enter the game in the 7th or 8th inning as a pinch runner, steal a base, score on a bloop single, then play defense. He should play CF and depending on the other fielders in the game, Span should move to either RF or LF. While he is in the game, the 2B and SS should know that on any ball hit to CF, they need to make their cut-off position 50-100 feet deeper, depending on where the ball is hit.
If Revere isn't going to play every day, what is he going to learn by sitting the bench? I think it would be more beneficial for his career development for him to play every day in Rochester. On the other side, who is going to give Span a day off in this situation? The Twins almost need him in the bigs as a back up who can "play" (not big on the idea of him playing RF) all 3 outfield positions.
I think he has to start on the major league roster until the OF of Willingham, Span and Parmalee / Plouffe prove they can handle it defensively. Then, if they prove that, the Twins can think about sending Revere to AAA to play everyday.
As I see it, the question for Revere is whether or not he can develop some gap power and keep outfielders honest. As it is right now, the guy is going to get lots of strikes simply because pitchers don't fear him. I agree he needs to take more walks, but what I don't see is opposing pitchers fearing throwing strikes constantly because they know he won't make them pay.
As such, the career OBP of .371 that John mentioned is a bit misstated. In the minors, lots of pitchers are working refining secondary pitches and control issues. As such, he's going to get more walks. Despite this, the OBP John mentioned was largely driven by contact, not walks. I don't see these things happening in the big leagues... I just don't. No one is going to nibble with the guy when they know that 1/3 of his plate appearances are weak grounders to the pitcher and the bulk of the remaining ones won't make it out of the infield.
Then you have to deal with his arm. I don't trust him in center or right because it's that bad. I could see an 8th/9th inning replacement/spot start where the goal is to keep guys off base to start those innings. I'd put Revere in left and dramatically upgrade the defense.
So to me, it comes down to whether he can develop some gap power. If he can, pitchers will nibble more, and the idea of him taking a walk is suddenly more likely. If that's the case, I'd send him to Rochester. But at this point, I'd think the org should have a pretty good idea if it can show. I'm betting against it. He's a 4th OF (and a pretty good one).
To me, this comes down to what role the Twins see Revere playing over the next 3-4 years.
If they really believe he's Span's heir in CF, whether that be later this year following a trade or a year or two from now, then I agree that he's better off playing every day in CF at Rochester than being the 4th OF in Minnesota.
BUT... Benson is going to be in Rochester, too, right? And aren't there indications that the Twins believe Benson has greater potential to take over CF for Span? Wouldn't Revere then be taking CF innings away from Benson in Rochester?
If they do feel Benson is more likely to be their CF over the next half-decade or more, then "4th OF and late inning guy" may be all that the organization is expecting Revere to be going forward. In that case, he might as well start filling that role right now.
Revere, Benson, and Tosoni should be the opening OF in Rochester. People shouldn't overlook AAA as a learning environment. Revere needs time there instead of playing 20 innings a week at most for the Twins.