Thread: Crasnick: U.S. leans on Joe Mauer

I am not saying Mauer could not be more vocal in the club house, but the team leader arguments always seem a little speculative to me. No one really knows what goes on behind closed doors. I could see someone who has all the right quotes for the reporters being different when it is just the team, and someone who seems reserved to the public might be different in private. That being said, I suspect Mauer does not take on the persona of Orlando Hudson in more private situations. For better or worse, Mauer is probably always going to be a lead by example type.

Originally Posted by mike wants wins

lots of snark in this thread, and I was going to avoid posting......but I hope everyone reads this from Seth, and remembers it next time Ryan talks about what a great clubhouse some guy is.

There's nothing wrong with great clubhouse guys. We all have jobs and want to work in a positive environment. I just think people are all different. Some are quiet. Some are louder.

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

The teams that advanced all seem to play with heart, energy and enthusiasm. I just don't know that cool, controlled Joe Mauer can ever INSPIRE his teammates to play that way. They may emulate him but will that make them CHAMPIONS? He still has a lot to prove to me on that front.

Not to get all personal but this exactly the type of cliched nonsense that gets spewed out there about how leaders are supposed to act. I`ll add one thing, if you are a professional athlete, playing in the playoffs or the championship series and you need some other player to inspire you by being Mr. Rah Rah, you don`t belong there.

A good leader keeps his wits about him when it seems all hell is breaking loose, he`s the calm in the storm that allows everyone else to keep their focus. What does emotion do for you when the pressure is on except give you some false bravado.

Sorry Seth, I will try again. Numbers matter more than bad numbers but good character guy.....if he is trying to justifying signing a guy, and his numbers suck, but the interviews are all about makeup and character and hustle, well, numbers are what matter. Or did I misunderstand you?

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

I'm not saying quiet guys can't win. But as important as Mariano Rivera was the Yankees, I don't think anyone would call him the primary leader of that team. (That was probably "The Captain's" role but they obviously had other leaders as well).

I am not saying that Joe Mauer isn't a valuable player. But can you look to Joe Mauer to be the PRIMARY leader on your team?

I have a lot of doubts on that front. But when his salary takes up 25%-30% or more of your payroll, can you (or will you) have another player (or two) who can demonstrate a more active, enthusiastic leadership style? (And, keep in mind that it also has to be a leadership style that doesn't undercut Joe Mauer in any way given his position on the team).

I've thought in the past that perhaps Morneau could do it but of course, his injury situation over the last few years makes it more and more unlikely. And despite what anyone may think of his skills, I think that Cuddyer did serve that purpose in earlier years.

But as Mauer ages and as this becomes more and more HIS team, it seems to me that it becomes harder to bring in anyone else who DOES have leadership skills that are different than Mauer's.

I am not knocking Mauer as a ballplayer. And I don't expect him to change his personality. But I do seriously question whether he can be the primary leader of a championship team.

(As for the WBC, I've enjoyed it thoroughly -- and I really appreciated the intensity and heart demonstrated by the DR, Italy and Puerto Rico. I'm also looking forward to watching the Dutch and Japanese. My understanding is that the WBC is partially owned by the players -- if they can't get "their own" American players to take it more seriously, then shame on all of them).

I'll never forget the time Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent fist fought each other to within 5 outs of a World Championship. That was truly awe-inspiring leadership from two of the classiest guys in baseball.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

I'll never forget the time Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent fist fought each other to within 5 outs of a World Championship. That was truly awe-inspiring leadership from two of the classiest guys in baseball.

But they had great intensity.

Game on the line, bottom of eight, runners on second and third, one out. Joe Mauer up. Eight pitches thrown. Some fastballs right down the middle. Joe Mauer takes a walk. That's the way this kid rolls. You have a chance to be a hero? Joe will take a walk.

I defy anyone, to look back at key situations, and I don't dispute that Mauer is a great hitter, who hits better in key situations, but I still say, for a guy with that level of talent, to take that many pitches and a walk.... well it is what it is.

It would be better for Joe is they just intentionally walked him then that he worked the walk.

But, still, how many times has Mauer walked and left the lead runs on the bases? Somebody with some research skills, can you validate what I am trying to say?

Let me get this straight, you are saying that taking a walk there is a bad thing?

If Joe flails away at bad pitches in that situation, the same people are saying, "dont try to be a hero Joe, take what they are giving you!"
Guaranteed.

Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap

Somebody with some research skills, can you validate what I am trying to say?

No. Mauer hasn't been perfect in every situation but in general the statistics say exactly the opposite.

Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap

Game on the line, bottom of eight, runners on second and third, one out. Joe Mauer up. Eight pitches thrown. Some fastballs right down the middle. Joe Mauer takes a walk. That's the way this kid rolls. You have a chance to be a hero? Joe will take a walk.

Ok, 8 pitches thown, 4 were obviously balls, only 2 could have been straight down the middle that he took for strikes, so my limited math tells me Joe took a couple of cuts there. How do you criticize a guy for not swinging at bad pitches and more than likely worsening the team's position as opposed to loading the bases with still just one out.

Of qualified hitters he led the team in 2010 and 2012 for OPS with runners in scoring position. He consistently is among the Twins best or THE best in those situations throughout his career. For example last year he had one fewer RBI than Willingham in those situations in 9 fewer chances last year.

He is an elite hitter. Period. People rarely hit markedly different situationally Some hit a little better some hit a little worse but rarely is there a striking difference. That is simply a subjective bias.

I have a basic disagreement on the subject that a leader has to be all outgoing, screaming, cheerleading. My best boss in my long years of work was areally quiet, shy guy. But he was a leader by example, and a guy that you knew that when he said something he meant it. That made everybody around him take things seriously, and put a good effort. You can do that being quiet, or being more outgoing. But the emotion show many times is for the cameras and nothing else.

Point is this: If you are the best player on the team, maybe the best in baseball, at what point is it incumbent on you to be The Decider in a big game, versus taking a walk and letting some one else be the decider?

Criticize me if you want, call me names if you must, but the point remains: Does Joe Mauer want to be the kind of player who makes the big play, or is he content to take a walk and let it fall to someone else? And, again, his batting average with runners on base in not the issue. In fact, it magnifies the issue. Take a swing, Joe.

By not swinging, if things don't turn out well, it's not Joe's fault. But, on the other hand, didn't Joe have an opportunity to win the game? And, isn't he one of baseball's best players?

When was the last time that Albert Pujols, Mark Texeira, or Miguel Cabrera make their name by taking a walk in key situations?

I'm not a Mauer hater, far from it. But, it does surprise me that in key situations, with the game on the line, he takes strikes instead of trying to be a hero. Not the way one would script it, but it is the way Mauer plays it whether the game is on the line or not.

Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap

Point is this: If you are the best player on the team, maybe the best in baseball, at what point is it incumbent on you to be The Decider in a big game, versus taking a walk and letting some one else be the decider?

Yeah, and even if he isn't actually up at that point, he should go up and hit when someone else is facing the situation to be the "Decider". That's what "Deciders" do. They "Decide". And on the completely unlikely 8 out of 9 chance that they aren't even the one who gets the chance to "Decide" the game, they should "Decide" that they get to hit when they want and go to the plate, with a fake nose and mustache if they have to. That's what "Deciding" is all about.

Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap

I'm not a Mauer hater, far from it. But, it does surprise me that in key situations, with the game on the line, he takes strikes instead of trying to be a hero. Not the way one would script it, but it is the way Mauer plays it whether the game is on the line or not.

You mean, swinging at good pitches and not swinging at bad pitches? Yes, Mauer does that consistently.

There's a reason guys pitch around Joe Mauer when the game's on the line. Same thing happens to Pujols and all the other guys you listed. The best hitters in the game are always walked in key situations.

Originally Posted by Willihammer

You mean, swinging at good pitches and not swinging at bad pitches? Yes, Mauer does that consistently.

There's a reason guys pitch around Joe Mauer when the game's on the line. Same thing happens to Pujols and all the other guys you listed. The best hitters in the game are always walked in key situations.

Perhaps he means not swinging at strikes when the count is favorable? Or not swinging at first pitch strikes?

Originally Posted by Willihammer

You mean, swinging at good pitches and not swinging at bad pitches? Yes, Mauer does that consistently.

There's a reason guys pitch around Joe Mauer when the game's on the line. Same thing happens to Pujols and all the other guys you listed. The best hitters in the game are always walked in key situations.

Just for the record, and I think this is the issue that the poster is concerned about:
In the WBC elim. game, Mauer came up in the 8th with runners on 2nd and 3rd and took a 2-0 pitch for a strike, which according to gamecast, was a meatball right down the middle of the plate, a little high. Contrary to poster Oldcap's assertion, this was the only really hittable pitch in the AB, as he fouled off a couple of corner strikes before working the BB. A hit in that situation might have been significant in changing the outcome, which Torre ultimately ruined by not PHing with right-hand batters against Romero.

Originally Posted by glunn

Perhaps he means not swinging at strikes when the count is favorable? Or not swinging at first pitch strikes?

Mauer took a massive cut at a 3-1 fastball in the 8th iirc. He wasn't just sitting with the bat on his shoulder. Also, walking to load the bases gives the next hitter a far better chance to score a run and to, as a team, score more runs in the inning.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

I'll never forget the time Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent fist fought each other to within 5 outs of a World Championship. That was truly awe-inspiring leadership from two of the classiest guys in baseball.

Of course, you left out the Oakland Athetics first vintage 3-peat dynasty in the 70s. Neary to a man, they virtually all hated each other, except they were united in all hating Reggie Jackson worse, and Charlie Finley even worse than Reggie.