Thread: Miller: Escobar Could Be Gardy's 3rd Catcher

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Yeah...we'll see. As I posted somewhere in another thread, they started the year with 2 catchers in 2012, too, until the stress got to Gardy and the warm security blanket of Butera sitting at the end of the bench was summoned.

The roster/lineup underwent a fairly significant change as discussed in the "Gardy wants some pop on the bench" thread. (Short version: Morneau became a first-baseman again, making Doumit/Mauer the DH.) I'm not saying it makes it "right," but there was more to it than just "Gardy wanted Butera."

Reusse is right. Some fans will be angry regardless of any decision the Twins make. This is a pretty easy "told you so. "

Originally Posted by Willihammer

They called up Butera about the time they called up Diamond. I assume the two had been working together in AAA but I don't know that for sure. In any case, immediately Butera started catching Pavano and Diamond.

So I believe the Twins' reasoning for bringing Butera onto the roster was less about having a redundant backup and more about his knack (however real or imagined) for handling some pitchers. At least, handling them better than Doumit. But now that Diamond has established that he can pitch effectively to whoever is catching, and Pavano and Liriano are not on the team, then Gardy has no reason to break camp with him. I will be curious to watch however, if Gibson gets on track, if they bring up Butera again when they call up Gibson.

Butera actually came up first. He started in Diamond's first two starts which was during the time Mauer was out from behind the plate for a short while after taking the foul tip off the knee. After those first two starts, Butera didn't start along with Diamond again until the final game of the season.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

But what if Escobar goes down? I'd feel a lot safer if Butera was there to back him up.

Agreed. And for the first month of the season, we should get Corky Miller back on the roster too, just so we can ease into this arrangement.

Forget catching back-to-back games -- heck, these guys may not even have to catch back-to-back innings!

Originally Posted by Willihammer

They called up Butera about the time they called up Diamond. I assume the two had been working together in AAA but I don't know that for sure. In any case, immediately Butera started catching Pavano and Diamond.

So I believe the Twins' reasoning for bringing Butera onto the roster was less about having a redundant backup and more about his knack (however real or imagined) for handling some pitchers. At least, handling them better than Doumit. But now that Diamond has established that he can pitch effectively to whoever is catching, and Pavano and Liriano are not on the team, then Gardy has no reason to break camp with him. I will be curious to watch however, if Gibson gets on track, if they bring up Butera again when they call up Gibson.

They called up Butera because Mauer took one off a kneecap and couldn't catch for a few days. Diamond was called up a week after Butera was called up, and that was because starting pitching was in short supply, it had nothing to do with Butera. Morneau went on the DL around the time Diamond was called up, so Mauer started playing more 1B. In any case, why did Butera spend the rest of the season in the big leagues, if not for Gardy's love of 3 catchers?

Originally Posted by USAFChief

They called up Butera because Mauer took one off a kneecap and couldn't catch for a few days. Diamond was called up a week after Butera was called up, and that was because starting pitching was in short supply, it had nothing to do with Butera. Morneau went on the DL around the time Diamond was called up, so Mauer started playing more 1B. In any case, why did Butera spend the rest of the season in the big leagues, if not for Gardy's love of 3 catchers?

As stated before, a more complete version is in the "Gardy wants pop on the bench" thread, but before Morneau went out he was the DH almost always, and when he came back, he was the DH almost never. That shifted Doumit or Mauer to DH almost always (when it had been rare before Morneau went out for a while because he--Morneau--was usually in the DH slot). It sure seems like the third catcher became "necessary" when one or the other of the first two catchers were turned to DH'ing full time.

In that previous thread, I surmised that it would be tough to think they would replace Butera on the roster with "some pop" because Doumit still figures to be the most common DH. But another player that can catch in a pinch (Escobar) would do the trick also, maybe.

I thought I was clear but in case I wasn't... To Clarify... If I was in charge... I wouldn't be as concerned about having a third player who can play the catcher position on the roster.

However... Since it seems to be important to Gardy... I think a better solution would be to train some players for emergency fill in at the position for in game injury and therefore having a roster spot available for a big bench bat.

I also believe that since Gardy has had this worry of running out of catchers during the course of a game for quite some time now. The Escobar training makes perfect sense even if I believe that the need for Escobar doesn't make sense overall.

I'm also thinking that since Gardy has been here awhile.

I think it's possible that the organization has made a mistake not trying to devolop an Escobar or two or three over the past decade. Just working with Hermann is short sighted in my opinion in consideration of what Gardy has been requiring over the years. The organization should have been planning for this scenerio in some way.

Arguing weather Gardy should feel that way... Isn't what I'm discussing. I'm trying to discuss under what seems to be Gardy's preference... Which is more realistic than Gardy changing his mindset on the subject.

The reason to carry a 3rd catcher should have nothing to do with a potential injury occurring during a game.

The reason to carry a catcher is if he is going to be included in the regular catching rotation. Mauer shouldn't catch >100 games this year. 72 last year. Do you want Doumit behind the plate for 60-100 games? He's awful at catching and butera is awful at hitting. Pick your poison. I think the board would unanimously pick Doumit and so would I but it really comes down to how many games Mauer catches.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

why did Butera spend the rest of the season in the big leagues, if not for Gardy's love of 3 catchers?

In fairness, they haven't carried 3 catchers for most of Gardy's tenure. That only started in 2009 after Mauer was activated late after coming back from injury. And even then, Morales was as much a (switch hitting) pinch hitter as he was the 3rd catcher. Next year, Pavano started requesting a personal catcher, then 2011 happened. 2012 Butera caught Liriano during his renaissance.

Everything we've read from Gardy this offseason has been he wants more pop off the bench. He knows that Butera isn't doing him any good when the team is down 4-1 going into the 6th every day.

Not to beat the Butera thing into the ground, but it seems that last year the approach was reasonable:
1) Start the year without him
2) Call him up when Mauer is banged up (fulfilling the "just a phone call away" strategy) and
3) Keep him because, really, why the hell not? It's not like he was keeping a great pinch-hiter off the roster.

But this could be different. I'd love to see a real pinch-hitter added IF they can identify one or bring one in. I don't know if Colabello qualifies or not. Thome certainly would. Then, when Mauer gets banged up and needs to sit for a while, bring up Butera and send down Escobar.

Originally Posted by kab21

The reason to carry a 3rd catcher should have nothing to do with a potential injury occurring during a game.

The reason to carry a catcher is if he is going to be included in the regular catching rotation. Mauer shouldn't catch >100 games this year. 72 last year. Do you want Doumit behind the plate for 60-100 games? He's awful at catching and butera is awful at hitting. Pick your poison. I think the board would unanimously pick Doumit and so would I but it really comes down to how many games Mauer catches.

That could be... I'm pretty sure I've read some quotes from Gardy where he specifically talked about needing the third catcher so Joe and Ryan could do some worry free DH'ing. Gardy specifically talked about the potential injury issue in those quotes... Not that I'm a big believer in any quotes because decisions and situations are always deeper than soundbites can provide.

As far as team context and what Gardy and TR want... Who knows... I'm sure there is a reason for everything.

The only thing I know is that very rarely does any other team carry 3 catchers. The Twins have been doing it... and the Tigers might do it this year with V-Mart manning the DH spot. The Mariners may be another team to watch with Jesus Montero doing DH work.

To me it just makes sense to experiment with Escobar. Hopefully he will never play back there because Mauer and Doumit stay healthy.

I'd rather have a better bench bat than a 3rd Catcher.

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

Not to beat the Butera thing into the ground, but it seems that last year the approach was reasonable:
1) Start the year without him
2) Call him up when Mauer is banged up (fulfilling the "just a phone call away" strategy) and
3) Keep him because, really, why the hell not? It's not like he was keeping a great pinch-hiter off the roster.

But this could be different. I'd love to see a real pinch-hitter added IF they can identify one or bring one in. I don't know if Colabello qualifies or not. Thome certainly would. Then, when Mauer gets banged up and needs to sit for a while, bring up Butera and send down Escobar.

Whoa whoa whoa, what happens in the case of a needed 7th middle infielder?

Originally Posted by edavis0308

Whoa whoa whoa, what happens in the case of a needed 7th middle infielder?

Well, if Florimon's arm falls off, his batting average might go down slightly. Who says we need a 7th?

Mauer is healthier than he's been since 2009, and healthier at this stage of the season for "as long as I can remember" according to Joe. So there's less concern about him catching five times a week than in past years. Couple that with Gardy's stated desire to get a real bat on the bench, and this move makes perfect sense. The question, then, is who? My money is on Boggs, but Ramirez has a shot as well.

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

Not to beat the Butera thing into the ground, but it seems that last year the approach was reasonable:
1) Start the year without him
2) Call him up when Mauer is banged up (fulfilling the "just a phone call away" strategy) and
3) Keep him because, really, why the hell not? It's not like he was keeping a great pinch-hiter off the roster.

But this could be different. I'd love to see a real pinch-hitter added IF they can identify one or bring one in. I don't know if Colabello qualifies or not. Thome certainly would. Then, when Mauer gets banged up and needs to sit for a while, bring up Butera and send down Escobar.

3) makes no sense whatsoever. Let's hope the team's management thinks things through deeper than "why the hell not?"

Originally Posted by kab21

The reason to carry a 3rd catcher should have nothing to do with a potential injury occurring during a game.

The reason to carry a catcher is if he is going to be included in the regular catching rotation. Mauer shouldn't catch >100 games this year. 72 last year. Do you want Doumit behind the plate for 60-100 games? He's awful at catching and butera is awful at hitting. Pick your poison. I think the board would unanimously pick Doumit and so would I but it really comes down to how many games Mauer catches.

If we've truly reached the point where the Twins enter a season expecting Mauer to be unable to catch more than 100 games, that's just more evidence Mauer should have been moved to a new permanent position years ago.

Originally Posted by Willihammer

In fairness, they haven't carried 3 catchers for most of Gardy's tenure. That only started in 2009 after Mauer was activated late after coming back from injury. And even then, Morales was as much a (switch hitting) pinch hitter as he was the 3rd catcher. Next year, Pavano started requesting a personal catcher, then 2011 happened. 2012 Butera caught Liriano during his renaissance.

Everything we've read from Gardy this offseason has been he wants more pop off the bench. He knows that Butera isn't doing him any good when the team is down 4-1 going into the 6th every day.

Two words: Corky Miller, who was the FOURTH catcher on the team (counting LeCroy), who pushed Restovich off the roster for good. Gardy has gradually abandoned the desire for so many catchers since that year, when we had like two pinch hits all year or something. But this is a new attitude for him. It's refreshing that he's maybe not as set in his ways as we thought.

Toushay about the 2005 team

Originally Posted by cmathewson

since that year, when we had like two pinch hits all year or something..

This comment sort of opened up a can of worms for me. I started looking into what meager pinch hitting statistics are easily available and it appears that pinch hitting is, generally speaking, pretty small peanuts. Exceedingly small, and actually detrimental in some cases.

This is a good but old BP article on the topic:

Considering only pinch hitting situations in which the player being replaced is not a pitcher, our worst fears appear to be confirmed. In 2005, the average player being replaced hit .250/.315/.392, and the average pinch hitter had season stats of .257/.322/.402. So, on the surface, managers are bringing in superior hitters to help the offense. However, the pinch hitters averaged just .224/.306/.328 in these situations, which is significantly worse than the season averages of the players they were replacing.

and further on, this:

The remaining 9025 pinch hit chances have been broken into those that created a platoon advantage (i.e., a switch hitter or lefty replacing a righty when facing a RHP, or vice versa), and the rest. Let's first look at the moves designed to create a platoon advantage, which accounts for 78% of these chances. On average, the model predicts a modest improvement of 19 points in wOBA for the pinch hitter, compared with the player he is replacing. Again, this is less than what one would expect if ignoring the "pinch hitting penalty," but it still amounts to an extra run being created every 60 or so times that such a move is made.

1 run per 60 PAs on average - when replacing a lefty with a righty, or vice versa.

To put that in perspective, the Twins averaged 70 PH ABs since 2010 (unfortunately ESPN's PH tracker doesn't track walks and PAs). Call it 100 PH PAs on average. Assume Gardy is doing a LHB-RHB or RHB-LHB swap 90% of the time (which would be difficult to do if he is replacing a switch-hitter, eg. Florimon), and you have around 1.8 runs gained in those situations.

Further on, the BP author writes that in the 20% (10% in AL) of PH appearances where a PH replaces a same-handed hitter, the PHer can be expecte to perform worse than the player he's replacing around a third of the time (after accounting for the PH penalty). But, there's still a small gain overall.

So, based on this, we're looking at something like 2 whole runs over the course of a hundred PH PAs in a year, as an estimate. An argument could definitely be made that there about a hundred ways to better use that 25th roster spot besides carrying a Colabello or even a Thome.

Originally Posted by Willihammer

Toushay about the 2005 team



This comment sort of opened up a can of worms for me. I started looking into what meager pinch hitting statistics are easily available and it appears that pinch hitting is, generally speaking, pretty small peanuts. Exceedingly small, and actually detrimental in some cases.

This is a good but old BP article on the topic:



and further on, this:



1 run per 60 PAs on average - when replacing a lefty with a righty, or vice versa.

To put that in perspective, the Twins averaged 70 PH ABs since 2010 (unfortunately ESPN's PH tracker doesn't track walks and PAs). Call it 100 PH PAs on average. Assume Gardy is doing a LHB-RHB or RHB-LHB swap 90% of the time (which would be difficult to do if he is replacing a switch-hitter, eg. Florimon), and you have around 1.8 runs gained in those situations.

Further on, the BP author writes that in the 20% (10% in AL) of PH appearances where a PH replaces a same-handed hitter, the PHer can be expecte to perform worse than the player he's replacing around a third of the time (after accounting for the PH penalty). But, there's still a small gain overall.

So, based on this, we're looking at something like 2 whole runs over the course of a hundred PH PAs in a year, as an estimate. An argument could definitely be made that there about a hundred ways to better use that 25th roster spot besides carrying a Colabello or even a Thome.

(scratches chin)....Pondering using Thome in the 9th inning with the bases loaded or Butera....

So..... why again did the Twins offer arbitration to Butera and doubled his salary, instead of signing him to a MiLB contact (which is what he deserves?)