Beat the Rush: Fire Gardy and Terry Ryan Now!

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Originally Posted by LaBombo

The Twins have gone from 90+ game winners to 90+ game losers despite going from bottom 10 payrolls to top 10 payrolls. Yes, they lost a ton of games from Mauer, Morneau, and Span in 2011, but they lost about as many in 2012 with all of them healthy, or at least in the lineup.

I have no idea who you're talking about when you cite "aging stars" as a reason for the losing seasons. None.

The lower draft positions are a good point, right up until you consider the fact that just as the drought of prized prospects should be hitting the big club, they had a massive infusion of payroll that should easily make up for the absence of a couple of fast-rising prospects due to low draft picks.

On the other hand, your description of the potential Twins pitchers as "A Tommy John encounter group" was one of the best quips I've read on this forum or any other, and would like your permission to use it in offline Twins conversations, with my assurance that I will fully credit you for coining it.

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Quote me all you want, just don't make a big deal about my hair color... ;-)

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Originally Posted by ashburyjohn

Santana is probably one of the prime examples Ryan uses when talking about the risks of multi-year deals. The Mets probably loved the contract, up through around August of the second year. After that, it got scary for a year, and then the two years following have been a virtual waste of the money.

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It was September of 2010, his third year with the Mets and second year under his new deal. It would have been the time that a six year deal with the Twins would have expired had Ryan thought to extend him for a more reasonable length after the 2004 season. It would have been a logical extension length that would have worked out nearly perfectly.

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Originally Posted by mike wants wins

As for the payroll, the owner and GM have said repeatedly that Ryan can spend what he wants to spend. I can only take them at their word on that.

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This is true. Can't really blame ownership for the entire cut, Ryan had money to work with and chose not to use it.

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

It was September of 2010, his third year with the Mets and second year under his new deal. It would have been the time that a six year deal with the Twins would have expired had Ryan thought to extend him for a more reasonable length after the 2004 season. It would have been a logical extension length that would have worked out nearly perfectly.

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I was referring to 2009, when he stopped pitching after August. I assume he would have been unavailable for any post-season work, which is a prime reason for acquiring a talent like him, even if the Mets fortunes didn't work out that year. I think you're right that his 2010 season also ended early, this time with a career-interruption.

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Originally Posted by PatMearesFan

i just gave you all the examples you need, two straight awful years with big payrolls, no other fan base or team would accept 200 almost loses in 2 years!! how many world series titles do we have because of terry? ZERO how many world series appearances? ZERO time to make a change

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Then there ought to be a lot of general manager jobs open as quite a few teams have not made the world series. Beane in Oakland come first to mind as someone who has never gotten to the world series and is long tenured. 2007-2011 losing record

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

It was September of 2010, his third year with the Mets and second year under his new deal. It would have been the time that a six year deal with the Twins would have expired had Ryan thought to extend him for a more reasonable length after the 2004 season. It would have been a logical extension length that would have worked out nearly perfectly.

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I think you are missing something here. How often do players extend contracts way past their arbitration years? Young guys that are extended rarely will sign contracts more than a year into what would be their free agency years. Even if Ryan had wanted to sign him for six years (which I doubt), I'm skeptical that Santana would have signed.

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Originally Posted by Boom Boom

Liriano had elbow issues before the Giants traded him. That's why they were willing to give him up.

What the Giants did with AJ after the trade has no bearing on the trade itself, just as Nathan's contract extension with the Twins doesn't have anything to do with the trade either, and just as the JJ Hardy trade has nothing to do with the Johan Santana trade.

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So the "fact" that Liriano was going to get hurt (more than two and a half years later) is part of the trade, but AJ being under contract for only one year was a big surprise to both sides? I just don't get that.

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Originally Posted by drjim

So do the Twins. Whats your point?

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I thought it was pretty clear that the argument of "we had bad draft position" is a poor excuse for the farm system dipping. And contrary to the claims of some here, it clearly was dipping at the time Smith took over the role.

Again, Smith made A LOT of mistakes. But he also oversaw the drafting, signing, or developing of most of our current top 10 prospects which, by the way, makes this farm system one of the top 3-5 in the league at this point. And I'm not convinced that Ryan's track record would have been as positive if he was in charge in that stretch.

Ryan has plenty of positives he brings back to the organization, but let's not pretend Smith's aggressiveness had no payoffs. We may be about to reap those rewards.

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Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

I thought it was pretty clear that the argument of "we had bad draft position" is a poor excuse for the farm system dipping. And contrary to the claims of some here, it clearly was dipping at the time Smith took over the role.

Again, Smith made A LOT of mistakes. But he also oversaw the drafting, signing, or developing of most of our current top 10 prospects which, by the way, makes this farm system one of the top 3-5 in the league at this point. And I'm not convinced that Ryan's track record would have been as positive if he was in charge in that stretch.

Ryan has plenty of positives he brings back to the organization, but let's not pretend Smith's aggressiveness had no payoffs. We may be about to reap those rewards.

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Actually, the argument clearly made was that "bad draft position" was nothing but an excuse, and a lazy one at that. It's a groundless argument, and perhaps a bit lazy.

Poor draft position isn't the sole reason for the farm system dipping. And a lot of factors have gone into the rise as well. I don't know anyone who believes that our draft position is the sole factor. I can find commenters on here who either ignore it as a factor or who minimize it as a factor without putting any effort into supporting their opinion with facts.

I find it interesting that people feel such a strong compulsion to finger a single individual for credit or blame. This whole drafting and development business involves a multi-million dollar annual budget. There are sixty employees involved in this part of the business. For those of you in the know, please tell me how you came to know the level of influence Billy Smith had on the signing of Sano. What information do you have that I don't have? Sure is more logical to me to think the credit (and blame) should be shared.

I'm sure Tubby Smith can relate to what has been said/posted.

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Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

I thought it was pretty clear that the argument of "we had bad draft position" is a poor excuse for the farm system dipping. And contrary to the claims of some here, it clearly was dipping at the time Smith took over the role.

Again, Smith made A LOT of mistakes. But he also oversaw the drafting, signing, or developing of most of our current top 10 prospects which, by the way, makes this farm system one of the top 3-5 in the league at this point. And I'm not convinced that Ryan's track record would have been as positive if he was in charge in that stretch.

Ryan has plenty of positives he brings back to the organization, but let's not pretend Smith's aggressiveness had no payoffs. We may be about to reap those rewards.

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If the counter argument to low draft choices is that other teams are able to get good players later in the draft as evidence that is a poor example. The Twins have done that as well.

I would suggest the main reasons were (in no particular order): lower draft choices, few comp picks, minimal established player for prospect trades (because they were usually competing), lower budgets on international signings, general reluctance to go over slot in the draft. It is interesting that once Target Field started getting constructed and the promise of future revenues was secure that the last two became less of an issue and the farm system started to improve.

Perhaps the better lesson is that Terry Ryan and co. did OK as a small market team in the early part of the 2000s and that once the revenues of Target Field started to come in it allowed them to compete on more levels. There is more to Target Field than just major league payroll.

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Originally Posted by glunn

First, I want to welcome you to Twins Daily. We love fans who are passionate, so you should be able to fit in here.

Please note, however, that everyone benefits when we make an effort keep the tone at a moderate level.

Here is an example of how you might have made your point without causing an uproar:

"I don't understand why the Twins don't fire Gardenhire and Ryan now, and bring in Molitor to put the team on the right track. We needed pitching and Ryan did not provide the level of pitchers that would make the Twins competitive. Another 100 losses seems possible this year. Why are the Twins keeping these guys?"

The substance of your post could be basically the same, but you would be inviting discussion and debate instead of creating the impression that you are inviting argument or just venting your anger.

Again, welcome to TD, and please give some thought to how much more respect you will receive if you make the effort to say things in a way that invites debate, not argument.

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This, exactly.

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Originally Posted by drjim

Perhaps the better lesson is that Terry Ryan and co. did OK as a small market team in the early part of the 2000s and that once the revenues of Target Field started to come in it allowed them to compete on more levels. There is more to Target Field than just major league payroll.

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I'm not suggesting I know why the tail-end of Ryan's run was such a failure for the farm system. I will suggest that pinning it on picking later in the draft was baseless. As you said, lots of teams have success picking lower in the order - including Terry Ryan and the Twins.

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Originally Posted by thrylos98

seriously:

Ronnie's w-l record with the twins is worse than chilly's record with the vikes. Seriously. And i am not talking post-season. Just regular season. One of these two became the manager of the millennium (tm) because a totally sucky team (and tk was at the helm when the turn happened in 2000) happened to be mediocre while he was at the helm (other than the last 2 seasons, in which the team sucked more than it ever did in 2 seasons in a row) while the other one was ran out of town because a mediocre team could not make it to the superbowl.

The last time the twins won was in 1991. Then 'roid a's happened, strike in 94 happened and tr happened. And the team hasn't won for 21 years

gee... How unspeakable to ask for the removal of the people who are ru(i)nning this team...


(and yeah, it is molitor and not moliter or whatever the op said up there, but what matters more is that tr said that this hall of famer is not "a good fit" to be a coach for this team, while he got steinbach to be a bench coach after he coached his son's little league team to a championship... Really.)

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huh???

oh and I'm not sure it's Gardy's fault for the lack of starting pitching...

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

Poor draft position isn't the sole reason for the farm system dipping. And a lot of factors have gone into the rise as well. I don't know anyone who believes that our draft position is the sole factor. I can find commenters on here who either ignore it as a factor or who minimize it as a factor without putting any effort into supporting their opinion with facts.

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First, Ryan is generally getting majority credit for his successes so it only makes sense to give Smith the same. Hell, if you're going to give Smith full blame for his mistakes, full credit only makes sense too.

Second, you posted a long, multi-paragraph rant primarily focused on not having a top ten pick as being the reason for Ryan allowing the farm to dip. You said that the Twins scouting department is large....as a reason to bash Smith but promote how great Ryan is? You suggested that only drafting in the top 10 is how the Twins build farm success, yet I'd suggest you look at BA's top 10 Twins prospects and see how (and when) most of them were acquired. You also cited two recent signings by Ryan in a discussion about what he did 5 years ago that hurt the farm.

This is not Ryan bashing. I like Ryan, but that shouldn't preclude a tip of the hat to Smith. It certainly shouldn't require us to excuse poor drafting with draft position. It wasn't Ryan's finest time, I think he's even said as much when he briefly retired from the role. (Burnout)

When you all want to critize/praise the people for the job of drafting, try knowing who the scouting director is. The draft is his job.
http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/...s_min&c_id=min

i would not fire either right now.

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Originally Posted by CDog

So the "fact" that Liriano was going to get hurt (more than two and a half years later) is part of the trade, but AJ being under contract for only one year was a big surprise to both sides? I just don't get that.

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Just remember Cdog , that Terry siad the key player of the trade was Boof....Liriano was forced on us....is 1 of the reasons i refer to this trade as Ryans lucky trade, not something to build an 18 year career on to me

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Originally Posted by drjim

If the counter argument to low draft choices is that other teams are able to get good players later in the draft as evidence that is a poor example. The Twins have done that as well.

I would suggest the main reasons were (in no particular order): lower draft choices, few comp picks, minimal established player for prospect trades (because they were usually competing), lower budgets on international signings, general reluctance to go over slot in the draft. It is interesting that once Target Field started getting constructed and the promise of future revenues was secure that the last two became less of an issue and the farm system started to improve.

Perhaps the better lesson is that Terry Ryan and co. did OK as a small market team in the early part of the 2000s and that once the revenues of Target Field started to come in it allowed them to compete on more levels. There is more to Target Field than just major league payroll.

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Ok go through and name all the players drafted under Mr. Ryan who have contributed to the twins mlb team? im guessing over 700 drafted and another 300 non drafted signees and how many have made it to the show/ and out of that number how many have made a serous impact? im guessing 40 made it to the show and 12 have made impacts.me im to lazy to look it up , but i betcha im not far off with these numbers