Thread: Bollinger: Herrmann Hopes to break camp as 3rd catcher

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Good point. Are we going to forfeit interleague games from here on out?

I heard the Twins invested heavily in cardboard stand-ups of movie actors and those are expected to receive the majority of pitcher ABs in 2013.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Good point. Are we going to forfeit interleague games from here on out?

Might as well forfeit some of the intraleague games while you're at it.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

I heard the Twins invested heavily in cardboard stand-ups of movie actors and those are expected to receive the majority of pitcher ABs in 2013.

I can tell this is snark...you used "Twins" and "invested heavily" in the same post.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

I can tell this is snark...you used "Twins" and "invested heavily" in the same post.

Well, luckily for them Battleship tanked or they would have had to spend at least $75 more to get all those cardboard cutouts of Liam Neeson, who in early tests has now become the Twins' fifth most-feared hitter.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Well, luckily for them Battleship tanked or they would have had to spend at least $75 more to get all those cardboard cutouts of Liam Neeson, who in early tests has now become the Twins' fifth most-feared hitter.

Don't be modest.

Originally Posted by Boom Boom

Might as well forfeit some of the intraleague games while you're at it.

They're already doing that by keeping Butera on the roster.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

They're already doing that by keeping Butera on the roster.

Just wait until that first Twins-patented approach to injury happens where they wait 2 weeks out of a 3 week injury to put someone on the DL and Butera gets heightened at-bats in that stretch. Haven't even touched on that one yet.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

What tirade and what extremeness? I just looked over the thread, I'm not exaggerating or fabricating anything. I'm not on a tirade. I'm not being extreme. Pretty unfounded accusations there, yeesh.

You? Never.

How about - Drew Butera is an awful baseball player who's continued scholarship to the Twins 25 man roster is an embarrassment for the franchise and an insult to paying customers. Someone so terrible at his job, so woefully inept at a major portion of the game, so utterly useless at the plate

Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

The presence of a third catcher itself is obnoxious but I’ve come to terms with it. It’s just something Gardy wants with two older, injury-prone players who often fill in at other positions atop the depth chart. I’d love it if people were attacking the idea of a third catcher more (like Chief's recent post) rather than misguidedly attacking Butera constantly. The idea that there’s some meaningful difference in what you’re going to get offensively from a .500 OPS guy and a .600 OPS guy over 150 plate appearances is silly. Neither is giving you any offense, and as far as the Twins are concerned that’s fine. Perfectly fair to call that out as an issue. Lame to continually talk about how horrible Butera is at his job. He does the job just fine -- the problem is that the job exists.

It's been covered already, but I'll just add my $0.02 because I have a hard time not piling on the Butera issue. Which isn't actually a Butera issue, per se, but as was noted previously is really a Gardenhire issue. His irrational fear of having to bat a pitcher for a few at-bats in a game when his second catcher is DH'ing and his starter gets hurt. It's not about whether Butera's 150 AB are a massive dropoff from somebody else who's only worthy of 150 AB, it's that he's getting those 150 AB because Gardenhire is afraid of a pitcher having to get 2-4 AB. In a season. In the era of interleague play.

We don't need a 3rd catcher. Repeat after me. We don't need a 3rd catcher. Even if we like to DH our backup catcher, we don't need a 3rd catcher.

I don't want Herrmann to start the season in the majors, he should spend some time at AAA. That is incidental to the fact that I don't want Butera to start the season in the majors either. Neither deserves to.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

It's NOT extreme. Historically he's one of the worst hitters IN BASEBALL HISTORY. It's not hyperbole, it's factual. He IS utterly useless at the plate. He IS woefully inept at a major portion of the game (hitting), and he IS an embarrassment to the franchise to continue to hand a historically awful hitter a roster spot. It's not extreme because it's factually accurate. He IS that bad of a hitter.

You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

No, the arguments are that he "complements" other catchers. Having two players who can't play at the same time who are deficient at a portion of the game is not a "complement" and if you carried that thinking to the rest of the roster would be incredibly foolish. Yet somehow that argument has been trotted out at least twice in this thread. You keep saying no one is defending Butera, and yet that is precisely what has happened repeatedly. From he doesn't get enough ABs to matter, to the 25th roster spot is irrelevant, to the idea he's a good "complement". I'm not fabricating any opposing positions, you just choose not to see your defense of Butera as a defense. (Which, as Chief's response indicates - more than I am interpreting it as such)

Attacking the idea of the third catcher is no different. You want to give that some kind of higher standing but the truth is, there is no greater purpose to that ridicule as long as Gardy is here. So quit pretending otherwise. (You're trying to minimize my position over it which is frustrating and completely baseless)

I've come to grips that we have to have a third catcher as long as Gardy is here - now I want one that isn't terrible offensively. I fail to see how your position has some grander status.

A team should play its best players...an increase in backup catcher is small, but that does not mean you should accept bad play just because the impact is small. I mean, what I'd he never reached base, would you sign a guy that hits like he does now, just for some increment? I read here a lot they should not make this change or that change because the increase in outcomes is so small....by that logic you would only endorse adding superstars....but that us not how the world works. Every small improvement helps. Add enough small improvements up, and you have a big improvement.

If the club feels they need a third catcher, aren't there better options available at the cost? Drew Butera is a woefully inept hitter. Isn't there someone out there who is a defene-first catcher, but can top .600 in OPS? That is my gripe with the Butera issue--the argument can be made that given the other two catchers and where they play, that the Twins are one of the few teams that can use a third receiver, but if so, can't they do better than Drew Butera?

Originally Posted by mike wants wins

A team should play its best players...an increase in backup catcher is small, but that does not mean you should accept bad play just because the impact is small. I mean, what I'd he never reached base, would you sign a guy that hits like he does now, just for some increment? I read here a lot they should not make this change or that change because the increase in outcomes is so small....by that logic you would only endorse adding superstars....but that us not how the world works. Every small improvement helps. Add enough small improvements up, and you have a big improvement.

The word of the month is, "marginal."

Replacing Butera would be a marginal improvement, Marcum and Saunders would be marginal upgrades, getting a middle infielder with a pulse would be marginal, another reliever with a prayer of striking someone out is marginal, attendance improvements would be marginal. So on and so forth.

Apparently now the count is at least 5 people that have found the same arguments I have "fabricated" and "exaggerated". Strange, must be telepathy. Though, I guess maybe my argument is extreme in the sense that Butera is "extremely" bad at hitting.

But whatever, I'm done, Nick can rant away and mislabel me however he wants from here. Butera is a bad hitter, if we have to be strapped with a third catcher (an assumption imbedded in the original article) then I wish we had one that at least brought some versatility and non-historically-awful play to the table.

Thank you snepp....that's what I tried to type....

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

Now we're hearing Jeff Clement mentioned -- come on, the dude isn't even a catcher.

That seems like a weird requirement. You want your third-string player at the worst offensive position on the field to be a pinch-hitter candidate? How many backup catchers are used as pinch-hitters around the league?

For clarification... I'm not here to bury nor praise Drew Butera... I agree that we are attaching too much of the clubs woes on his shoulders. People do that... It is what it is...

My point is mainly centered on the need for a 3rd catcher. I understand why Gardenhire requires a 3rd catcher and I accept it... I just don't see the acuteness of that need personally.

Gardy requires it and if that's the case... I'm simply saying that I would take Clement over Butera. If those are my two choices and right now they are our two choices... 3 choices if you include Hermann.

I'd take Clement because he can reach the seats and that need for some pop off the bench is much more acute in my opinion. I have no problem with Florimon starting at SS if he brings the leather but there will come a time when they are down a run with the bases empty and two outs in the ninth and Florimon or Carroll or Mastro or Castro at the plate. The current Twins don't have a one swing late inning option at this time. It doesn't help much to pinch hit Castro for Florimon. Gardy and I disagree on this issue... We need pop on the bench more than a 3rd catcher. Its just my opinion.

Clement could be that guy... A .215 hitter who can park it. At the same time Clement can be catching insurance for the injury to Mauer while Doumit is DH'ing and vice versa.

As for... Is Clement a catcher anymore... I don't know... The Pirates had moved him to 1B but he was a catcher for Seattle for 5 years and a Catcher at USC before that. He has more experience at Catcher than anywhere else. He can certainly strap on the tools of ignorance and finish up a game if an injury or ejection happens to Mauer or Doumit. That's all I'm asking for... Can someone just strap the pads on and finish a game so we don't need to carry a third catcher.

Seth said that Butera is not a third catcher.... He is the backup... In concept that may be accurate... However... In 2012... Mauer caught 74 games... Doumit caught 59 games and Butera caught 41 games. None of the 3 catchers were call ups to fill in for an injured catcher in 2012. That makes Butera the third catcher... I really can't see it another way and the Twins are the only team that does it.

I hope everyone understands that i'm not downplaying the importance of defense at the Catcher position... I think it's extremely important... I believe that Catchers on average are not very good hitters kinda proves that most clubs value defense at catcher over offense. That's why everyone has weaker hitting backup catchers in my opinion. In the end... Most clubs don't carry 3 catchers because it just weakens the offensive options off the bench cuz they are defensive specialists for the most part.

I just believe that the third catcher shouldn't play that much so his defensive value to a club is questionable. That third catcher position would serve the club better if he can provide something we are missing... Like power off the bench or at least the ability to play another position.

He just has to strap the pads on in an emergency. I'm also not here to praise Clement nor bury him... I just choose him over Butera and I'd take a Shoppach or a Fox over Clement.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

You? Never.

How about - Drew Butera is an awful baseball player who's continued scholarship to the Twins 25 man roster is an embarrassment for the franchise and an insult to paying customers. Someone so terrible at his job, so woefully inept at a major portion of the game, so utterly useless at the plate

Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

The presence of a third catcher itself is obnoxious but I’ve come to terms with it. It’s just something Gardy wants with two older, injury-prone players who often fill in at other positions atop the depth chart. I’d love it if people were attacking the idea of a third catcher more (like Chief's recent post) rather than misguidedly attacking Butera constantly. The idea that there’s some meaningful difference in what you’re going to get offensively from a .500 OPS guy and a .600 OPS guy over 150 plate appearances is silly. Neither is giving you any offense, and as far as the Twins are concerned that’s fine. Perfectly fair to call that out as an issue. Lame to continually talk about how horrible Butera is at his job. He does the job just fine -- the problem is that the job exists.

I have received a complaint about this thread and am respectfully asking Leviathan and Nick to be a bit more respectful of each other's positions. You are both making good points and the discussion is worthwhile, but it would be even better if you could tone this down a notch in terms of the personal jibes. Arguably, neither of you has crossed the line yet, but you have both come close, and I am merely asking that you keep your passion while toning down the rhetoric just a little bit. I have great respect for both of you and hope that you are not offended by my request.

I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

You know this is a false dichotomy between Herrmann and Butera. There are likely several better catching options available than Butera.

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.