Thread: Souhan: Being A Twins Fan Requires Patience

Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

Fair enough, but I was responding to Bonnes assertion that the quizzical signings this winter were, perhaps, a good strategy to try and get higher picks. I would think that the players, though recognizing that these are rebuilding years, would be pretty pissed that the strategy for this year is to go battle your tails off, just no too much that we win a bunch of games. I think that's a blow to morale longer term and the kind of damage to a team's culture and competitiveness that could lead to stagnation and apathy that takes some real rooting out.

These players are professional players who get paid a lot of money for what they do, yes sometimes you have crappy seasons but I imagine any of the guys signed for longer then this year understand the plan, and even if they don't its in their best personal interest to play as hard as possible to win every game.

Need an example? Look no further then the 1990 and 1991 Minnesota Twins, finishing in last place didn't seem to destroy the 91 Twins morale to much, ya know?

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Numerous mlbtraderumor posts that stated such, and then stated that the twins couldn't get much in return at the current time for him (I believe one GM was quoted as them only being able to get a back end rotation type back for him, which we certainly don't have enough of currently!)

I followed that pretty closely because I felt we were really missing out on an opportunity and I never heard any such thing. He was shopped, but all we know is that the Twins felt they didn't get good value. But I never read anything about what those offers were.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

So why not include his whole body of work? 14 years the first time...

And I took out the 'players win thing' because yes, he deserves SOME credit for the winning (not all) and SOME of the fault for the losing as well .

But I do like the '****retarded' comment...so grown up

Fine, 5 division titles in 14 years, still a hell of a lot better then what the Royals and Pirates have done, no?

Try to re-fraise/back away from your orginal comment all you want, after you get called out on it. As you said before "the players win", so stick by it champ.

And yes it was a ****ing "stupid" comment. I apologize for using the word retarded, it was inappropriate. But it certainly was stupid.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Fine, 5 division titles in 14 years, still a hell of a lot better then what the Royals and Pirates have done, no?

Try to re-fraise/back away from your orginal comment all you want, after you get called out on it. As you said before "the players win", so stick by it champ.

And yes it was a ****ing "stupid" comment. I apologize for using the word retarded, it was inappropriate. But it certainly was stupid.

well, 5 division titles in 14 years if you extend two more years out...16. Heck, why not give him credit for 2010 too. Right after 2009.

I backed away from it before you 'called me on it'...before I ever read your post...so don't flatter yourself. Believe me, nothing you say will make me feel bad about what I write. I though it was dumb of me to say so I changed it. Notice I didn't deny saying it..

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

I followed that pretty closely because I felt we were really missing out on an opportunity and I never heard any such thing. He was shopped, but all we know is that the Twins felt they didn't get good value. But I never read anything about what those offers were.

It came out that an opposing GM said Willinghams value was that of a back end rotation guy, because most teams (like most of us fans) realized that Willingham was very unlikely to duplicate his excellent 2012 moving forward. Plus the guy has very little defensive value and injury issues. I can try to look up the exact quote later, but it was certainly featured on MLBtraderumors and discussed here at the time I believe.

Also FWIW: I think Ryan in his past stint and this off-season has shown how he is at least good at gauging correct value for trade targets, I think most of us are happy with the hauls for Span and certainly Revere, why not at least give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to trading additional veterans? (Especially when everyone is going to crucify him for everything else)

Originally Posted by ThePuck

well, 5 division titles in 14 years if you extend two more years out...16. Heck, why not give him credit for 2010 too. Right after 2009.

I backed away from it before you 'called me on it'...before I ever read your post...so don't flatter yourself. Believe me, nothing you say will make me feel bad about what I write

Frame it however you want champ, its still not as dumb as comparing the Twins organization to that of the Pirates or Royals.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

I can try to look up the exact quote later, but it was certainly featured on MLBtraderumors and discussed here at the time I believe.

Never saw any such thing. I have trouble believing that quite frankly. I don't doubt Ryan's ability to gauge the value he is getting in return for a trade - I question how hard he was looking. I think he sees Willingham as a "core" guy that they aren't all that interested in moving.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Frame it however you want champ, its still not as dumb as comparing the Twins organization to that of the Pirates or Royals.

Alright champ...I'm sure your faith in Ryan will be confirmed when they win 90+ games...as you're predicting...

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Never saw any such thing. I have trouble believing that quite frankly. I don't doubt Ryan's ability to gauge the value he is getting in return for a trade - I question how hard he was looking. I think he sees Willingham as a "core" guy that they aren't all that interested in moving.

Nov 9th MLB trade rumors:

The Twins might not receive much more than a No. 4 starter in exchange for Josh Willingham, an AL executive tells Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities Radio. "There's no doubt Josh has a very good contract, but I really doubt a team would trade a viable starting pitcher for a guy with a strong bat but who is limited defensively," the executive said. "It's a lot easier to find a left-field or DH-type than to trade a good starting pitcher for one and then have to backfill the rotation spot." The 33-year-old Willingham is owed $14MM through 2014 and posted an .890 OPS last season, but another AL executive says Denard Span is a better trade chip for Minnesota.

Read more at Josh Willingham Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Alright champ...I'm sure your faith in Ryan will be confirmed when they win 90+ games...as you're predicting...

I'm not predicting they will win 90 games... I voted and commented on that as an obvious snark/joke.

Lazy, stupid, retarded, dumb, ****: The seminal arrows in a logician's quiver -- Aristotle

Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

Lazy, stupid, retarded, dumb, ****: The seminal arrows in a logician's quiver -- Aristotle

Pure poetry...by a person thinking the quality of posts/posters have gone down so much since the good old days :-)
Nothing brings up the quality of posts quite like that kind of poetry...

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Pure poetry...by a person thinking the quality of posts/posters have gone down so much since the good old days :-)
Nothing brings up the quality of posts quite like that kind of poetry...

I find this irony as queer as smoking while on a cannula of oxygen.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Nov 9th MLB trade rumors

Thanks....you do realize that quote isn't at all what you've portrayed it to be....right?

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Thanks....you do realize that quote isn't at all what you've portrayed it to be....right?

There were numerous other reports out there saying the Twins were shopping Willingham, but were waiting for the right price, just like the numerous reports that said they were shopping Span and waiting for the right price, the reality is there is no huge rush to trade Willingham at this point anyways, the OF just lost 2 of its 3 starting people this off-season so off the bat plenty of rookies (or near rookies) such as Benson, hicks, Parmelee will get there shot in the OF, if the Twins are out of it (most likely) they will def have Willingham back on the block, my question to you is: would you rather have traded him back then for sub value, or waited until his value went up a bit to get rid of him?

FWIW: I don't mind them holding onto him heading into the season, if by some small chance the Twins are able to compete Willingham will be a big reason why. I think it was pretty obvious the Twins were rebuilding when they choose to trade both Span and Revere this off-season for players who for the most part won't be able to help in 2013 (the exception being Worley who arguably wasn't the center piece of that trade anyways)

Again I will keep faith in Ryan because he has had a solid track record in the past building teams and because the Twins suddenly have at op farm system in baseball along with a decent core of players at the major league level who have some talent (albeit the ones without a lot of talent are pretty bad!)

Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

Lazy, stupid, retarded, dumb, ****: The seminal arrows in a logician's quiver -- Aristotle

LOL who is being the condescending prick now? Instead of playing the holier then now schtick how about you respond to the actual arguments at hand?

Does anyone remember what the article was about? Oh yeah, Souhan.

I believe more could have been done. I think more should have been done.

The article (remember the article?) is a whitewash. We will certainly cheer for the Twins, but the fans deserved better.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

There were numerous other reports out there saying the Twins were shopping Willingham, but were waiting for the right price, just like the numerous reports that said they were shopping Span and waiting for the right price, the reality is there is no huge rush to trade Willingham at this point anyways,

Right, so going back to what I said - we only know it "wasn't the right price" - we have no idea what prices were being offered. The problem with this thinking is that Willingham is only going to get less valuable in all likelihood. He might maintain his value, but it's quite unlikely. A rebuilding team with this many OF options shouldn't be concerned with moving an aging player like Willingham. It's a mistake to not be aggressive about shopping him. I fear we are far, far away from being aggressive about it.

If it's so obvious we are rebuilding, why is the OF in the twilight of his career coming off a career year still on this team? That's the mistake being pointed out and you really don't have an answer for that short of "I trust Ryan". That's fine, but that's all it is. It's a valid point to see not moving him as a mistake.

Easy for Jim to write....he is not a fan. He does not pay for tickets. The Twins had money to spend, and refused to do so. They also refused to do so when Ryan was the GM before. I do not think this is a coincidence. This is who Ryan is. I feel had for Mauer. At least Morneau can leave after this year.

Souhan never seems to miss an opportunity to act like a snarky little brat. I doubt he has much conviction about what he wrote. It was probably much more about taking a pot shot at bloggers and us commenters, the noveau fans. Just another exercise in triteness by Souhan for the most part.

The thread sort of digressed into a discussion (again) about rebuilding, and whether they're going about it in the "right way". My thought is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I don't think any of us noveau fans believe they're NOT rebuilding.

Baseball can't happen soon enough, my friends. We're rehashing three themes constantly:

1. Are they rebuilding the right way?
2. Did they lie to us?
3. Are we entitled to more?

In his snarky way, I think Souhan was taking his biggest pot shot at those who constantly bitch about the second two points, not the first. As much as I dislike Souhan, I can fully understand this.

Let's play ball.