Thread: Article: What in the Hell is a Pedro Florimon?

Originally Posted by jokin

The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

Originally Posted by drjim

Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

Boaggerts, Iglesias (his glove will make you forget Florimon), Marrero (AZ St. 1st round pick, starts in Hi-A, will likely jump to AA or even AAA w/ a good season and a Boaggerts call-up, would have to have been a PTBNL) and they just got Brock Holt besides, who has played plenty of SS (blocked by Pedroia @ 2B). Boaggerts may have been too young for the spotlight in Boston, but he would have been more than ready on the Twins, any of these others are more than ready, today, to offer significant upside in 2013 or 2014 over what the Twins plan to roster this year and next.

Originally Posted by drjim

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

So you say. I said a combo of veterans and prospects.

Originally Posted by glunn

According to Bleacher Report, the best remaining free agent shortstops are Alex Gonzalez, Ronny Cedeno and Jason Bartlett. Gonzalez sounds risky, but with a high upside. Are any of these guys worth pursuing?

Of the three, I'd rather have Bartlett back. Maybe back in the AL he can find his stroke again.

The other two are not worth pursuing.

I doubt the Twins will go after Bartlett or anyone, though.

Originally Posted by drjim

People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

If it's your contention that filling SS is too hard for the current Twins' GM, then can I assume you're also calling for his replacement? Or is "it's too hard" an acceptable excuse in your book?

Originally Posted by drjim

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

That was my conclusion too. The Twins would have to open up the top end of its prospect list for a "Pick any four" type deal to get the Rangers off the idea of flipping Andrus or Profar for young, superstar-level talent like Price or Stanton. There is no individual or combination of Twins major-leaguers that would interest the Rangers in a trade for one of their stud SS. In my estimation, as great as it would be to have a top flight SS, it wouldn't be worth gutting the minor league pipeline. We have too many holes. That is the type of move a franchise makes when it is ready to make a run at the Series.

Originally Posted by jokin

So you say. I said a combo of veterans and prospects.

What combo plate would you offer the Rangers? I can imagine that only Willingham and maybe Perkins would interest them in such a deal. And I think that pair would only save us one top prospect. What do you think might do the trick?

"Florimon reminds me of Greg Gagne at that age, who could barely get the bat on the ball, but he could sure get his glove on it. And when he got leather on it, he made outs. That is the promise of Florimon. I'm not saying he will be the next Greg Gagne. But he has a chance to fill the position until Santana or Polanco are ready to take over. " Quote from cmathewson

Florimon doesn't really remind me of Gagne. Gagne was younger and actually showed promise of a good bat while making a lot of errors and not showing the range he later exhibited. There was even talk of moving Gagne to 3B to take advantage of his bat and because some thought he really wasn't a shortstop. Gagne's bat never really developed, although he had his moments and often started the season well but seemed to wear down.

Florimon is quite a bit older than Gagne was as a rookie. Florimon actually may have better tools than Gagne although I doubt if I am a good one to judge that. It just seems that he should be more consistent defensively than he is, since he is already in his mid twenties. I would be happy if settles in as a superior defensive shortstop, and can get over the Mendoza line as a hitter. I am not sure that will happen, however.

Originally Posted by jokin

Boaggerts, Iglesias (his glove will make you forget Florimon), Marrero (AZ St. 1st round pick, starts in Hi-A, will likely jump to AA or even AAA w/ a good season and a Boaggerts call-up, would have to have been a PTBNL) and they just got Brock Holt besides, who has played plenty of SS (blocked by Pedroia @ 2B). Boaggerts may have been too young for the spotlight in Boston, but he would have been more than ready on the Twins, any of these others are more than ready, today, to offer significant upside in 2013 or 2014 over what the Twins plan to roster this year and next.

Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

If it's your contention that filling SS is too hard for the current Twins' GM, then can I assume you're also calling for his replacement? Or is "it's too hard" an acceptable excuse in your book?

I'm not making excuses, I'm stating facts. It has difficult to find good SSs, and I was more talking in the realm of what Brock suggested. I will not defend their inability to develop a SS.

2004 - SS in first round (Plouffe)
2005 - two SSs in the second round (Kelly, Thompson), SS free agent (Castro)
2008 - SS free agent (Everett)
2009 - two high priced SSs in international market (Polanco, Sano)
2010 - SS in trade (Hardy), SS in second round (Goodrum), high priced international market (Pimentel)
2011 - SS in first round (Michael)
2012 - SS on waivers (Florimon), SS in trade (Escobar), SS free agent (Carroll)

This is the best I could think of resources (high draft pick, trade, international above $750k, free agents, waivers) off the top of my head used in an attempt to acquire SSs in the past 9 years and that doesn't include lower round picks (Dozier) or lower priced international free agents (Santana, Beresford). They have put resources in, I'm not sure why they haven't been able to develop a SS out of this mess (outside of the one year of Hardy).

Trading the only two respectable SSs the team has had since Guzman for minimal return is probably not another feather in the cap of Bill Smith.

Originally Posted by The Wise One

Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

I would trade Perkins in a heartbeat if it filled SS for several years. I don't think he has that kind of value.

Originally Posted by drjim

I would trade Perkins in a heartbeat if it filled SS for several years. I don't think he has that kind of value.

We just need to find another front office that, for reasons that cannot possibly be comprehended, treats the position like a complete after-thought.

Good thing we are contending and can't trade veterans for useful prospects to build for the future.

Reportedly Justin Upton couldn't pry Simmons from Atlanta. It took Bauer to acquire Didi.

The Rangers have two young SS's and would not part with either to acquire Justin Upton.

I have no idea what kind of trade it would take to bring in a SS but there appears to be some shortstop hoarding going on.

I suspect the price is gonna be Higher than Cheech and Chong circa 1978.

Originally Posted by edavis0308

Good thing we are contending and can't trade veterans for useful prospects to build for the future.

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

Originally Posted by drjim

2004 - SS in first round (Plouffe)
2005 - two SSs in the second round (Kelly, Thompson), SS free agent (Castro)
2008 - SS free agent (Everett)
2009 - two high priced SSs in international market (Polanco, Sano)
2010 - SS in trade (Hardy), SS in second round (Goodrum), high priced international market (Pimentel)
2011 - SS in first round (Michael)
2012 - SS on waivers (Florimon), SS in trade (Escobar), SS free agent (Carroll)

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the term "shortstop". Carroll has played the majority of his games at short once in his career. There isn't a scout on planet earth who projected Sano to stay at short. Michael has been called a second bagger by almost everyone who has watched him play. Likewise, Plouffe couldn't hack it and most scouts were unsurprised by it.

Everett is the type of shortstop that makes fans cringe and the front office's collective loins moisten. Unsurprisingly, he tanked. Juan Castro was so bad that we still laugh at his play over half a decade later.

In the "I don't suck" department, what's that leave? Hardy and Polanco? Great. So we have a guy in rookie ball and a guy the team traded away for pocket lint and a cardboard cutout of Rick Vaughn.

Personally I would have tried to buy low on Yunel Escobar but since he's a big meanie then that would have never happened.

It's fairly obvious we don't have the fire power to pull Off a trade for a top shelf SS but... If you're going to be all Smug about things..I'm sure we can trade Morneau or Willingham for a so so guy that has a hell of a lot more upside than Pedro freaking Florimon. I wouldn't advocate such a move Though. Might hurt our chances to win this year.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the term "shortstop".

There's always a bunch of shortstops drafted. Like 120 or so just last year...as opposed to maybe 50 2Bs. Shortstops often get converted...they may have played SS at whatever school they played before, but they get moved in the minors. They're targeted because of their athleticism. So for anyone to say we were really pushing to fill our shortstop need cause we drafted some and signed some cheap FA shortstops nobody wanted (Everett, Castro) is just grasping for straws. And if they actually believe hat, then they need to point out the pure incompetence of the people signing/drafting them. Either way, it doesn't look good...

It's like the whole thing about how we really addressed pitching cause we drafted so many pitchers...no, we didn't...we didn't draft an unusual amount of pitchers.

Originally Posted by drjim

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

I'm sorry drjim, but the more you go here the more you are definitionally making excuses.

Whether through the draft, FA, trades, or whatever other means....the team has failed to get a shortstop of any competency for a decade and appear content to have the position waste away. It IS hurting the team and needs to be fixed.

Originally Posted by drjim

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

In my opinion, if we are in for a penny with Span and Revere, we should be in for a pound and move Willingham, too. Signed for two more years at $7 million/per means that he has, by far, the most market value on the MLB roster. I know that Ryan has tickets to sell in 2013 and someone has to produce some runs. That said, Willingham's production will entertain but will not carry the Twins into the range of contention. This is the time to plug our collective noses and move all marketable assets. Willingham is coming off a career year and will not retain the value he has now as we move through next two years.

Remember the fantastic poo poo platter that one-year of Santana brought back? GMs just wont give back much for one year of control for anyone. And given the contracts Shane Victorino and Cody "Who's that?" Ross got this off season, I have to believe that Willingham is considered a deep-discount option worthy of prospects from teams interested in contending. Hello, Yankees? I believe you are short about 90 home runs.