Thread: Article: What in the Hell is a Pedro Florimon?

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter, Nomar Garciaparra, Hanley Ramirez, Elvis Andrus, Jose Reyes, Troy Tulowitzki, et al disagree.

This is not 1986, people. The shortstop position has changed and it's time for Ryan to acknowledge that fundamental shift in the way baseball is played in 2013. The Twins shouldn't try to roll out Greg Gagne simply because it worked in 1987.

It's also not 2003to anymore. There is a serious shortage of high quality SSs in baseball right now. I appreciate you mentioning several hall of famers but those are relatively rare and hard to acquire.

Originally Posted by drjim

It's also not 2003to anymore. There is a serious shortage of high quality SSs in baseball right now. I appreciate you mentioning several hall of famers but those are relatively rare and hard to acquire.

But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!

Originally Posted by drjim

People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

Not many left, but there sure were a lot more available back in November and it's obvious that because Ryan thought he'd done his job in the MI in the 2012 acquisitions of Carroll, Florimon and Escobar, it never occurred to him to poke around for an offseason acquisition via trade.

Are there still superior options available? Why yes, yes there are: Ranking the Top Players Still Available This Winter at Each Position | Bleacher Report

Will there be superior potential waiver wire pickups? Likely.

Originally Posted by FrodaddyG

But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!

That one still leaves a mark amongst the apologists...

Originally Posted by drjim

People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

The Twins haven’t had a steady shortstop remain in place for two years since Guzman left in 2004. I understand that there’s a shortage of quality players at the position but that’s ridiculous and unacceptable. The vast majority of other teams in the league either have a solid fixture at SS or they have a guy in place who has a good chance to become one.

What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.

Originally Posted by jokin

Not many left, but there sure were a lot more available back in November and it's obvious that because Ryan thought he'd done his job in the MI in the 2012 acquisitions of Carroll, Florimon and Escobar, it never occurred to him to poke around for an offseason acquisition via trade.

Are there still superior options available? Why yes, yes there are: Ranking the Top Players Still Available This Winter at Each Position | Bleacher Report

Will there be superior potential waiver wire pickups? Likely.

I'm quite aware of who was available as a SS this offseason. I'm not convinced any of them are clearly upgrades over Carroll.

As far as trades are concerned I can only think of five that moved. Reyes which took a boatload, Y Escobar with questionable makeup, and the three that went Arizona in trades that were regarded as bad for Arizona. Is that your solution?

Originally Posted by FrodaddyG

But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!

Terrible trade and I thought so at the time. But it has little to do with Terry Ryan or options available this offseason.

Originally Posted by drjim

I'm quite aware of who was available as a SS this offseason. I'm not convinced any of them are clearly upgrades over Carroll.

As far as trades are concerned I can only think of five that moved. Reyes which took a boatload, Y Escobar with questionable makeup, and the three that went Arizona in trades that were regarded as bad for Arizona. Is that your solution?

Just to name 2 off the top of my head, Texas and Boston are in major trading/rebuilding mode and have a surplus of MI major leaguers and solid to great prospects.

Originally Posted by drjim

Terrible trade and I thought so at the time. But it has little to do with Terry Ryan or options available this offseason.

No, but the current GM was still involved in an advisory capacity at the time, and no doubt had a fair input into that decision as it was happening. Smith absolutely deserves the blame for the final calls, but it isn't like Ryan was in a coma during his tenure. He was still around and acting as a "senior advisor", which would lead me to surmise that he was giving a fair portion of the "advice" that Smith got for many of the less-than-loved moves during his run of ineptitude.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

The Twins haven’t had a steady shortstop remain in place for two years since Guzman left in 2004. I understand that there’s a shortage of quality players at the position but that’s ridiculous and unacceptable. The vast majority of other teams in the league either have a solid fixture at SS or they have a guy in place who has a good chance to become one.

What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.

I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

Originally Posted by jokin

Just to name 2 off the top of my head, Texas and Boston are in major trading/rebuilding mode and have a surplus of MI major leaguers and solid to great prospects.

Great plan I'm on board! Remind me again who the Twins could trade to get said prospects.

Originally Posted by FrodaddyG

No, but the current GM was still involved in an advisory capacity at the time, and no doubt had a fair input into that decision as it was happening. Smith absolutely deserves the blame for the final calls, but it isn't like Ryan was in a coma during his tenure. He was still around and acting as a "senior advisor", which would lead me to surmise that he was giving a fair portion of the "advice" that Smith got for many of the less-than-loved moves during his run of ineptitude.

Yes, but it begs the question of: how are we sure that he isn't in a coma now?

Originally Posted by drjim

Great plan I'm on board! Remind me again who the Twins could trade to get said prospects.

Uhhh, you can't be serious.

Originally Posted by drjim

I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

No one expects them to have Tulowitski. It'd be nice, but that isn't the expectation. How about .650 OPS as a starting point? Can't count Carroll either, guy doesn't have the range to be an everyday SS. So the bar being set is pretty damn low and the team is still failing to meet it.

Originally Posted by drjim

I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

He didn't say have a solution in place, he said have had a solution in place at some point since 2004. Subtle difference.

Originally Posted by jokin

Uhhh, you can't be serious.

Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

Originally Posted by drjim

I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

Looking around the AL, I see two other teams (SEA, OAK) without a decent SS locked in. Oakland's top prospect is a shortstop (Addison Russell) and Seattle's got a couple in their top 10. There is no team that has handled the position as poorly as the Twins and it isn't even close.

Originally Posted by drjim

Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

You are right about the Rangers. They refused to put Andrus or Profar into any Upton deal this off-season. The current plan is to put one of those players in a Stanton or Price deal at the trade deadline or next off-season. I am not sure what basket of prospects the Twins could offer to get any Rangers interest. Something along the lines of "Pick any 4" which is not a rational move for an rebuilding team.

Originally Posted by Dance with Disco Dan

You are right about the Rangers. They refused to put Andrus or Profar into any Upton deal this off-season. The current plan is to put one of those players in a Stanton or Price deal at the trade deadline or next off-season. I am not sure what basket of prospects the Twins could offer to get any Rangers interest. Something along the lines of "Pick any 4" which is not a rational move for an rebuilding team.

The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

Looking around the AL, I see two other teams (SEA, OAK) without a decent SS locked in. Oakland's top prospect is a shortstop (Addison Russell) and Seattle's got a couple in their top 10. There is no team that has handled the position as poorly as the Twins and it isn't even close.

This.

And it's scary how much of NN fanboy I'm becoming.