Thread: Source: Twins have 1 yr offer to Saunders; never made offer to Marcum

Originally Posted by Riverbrian

I agree with you... Marcum was the bottom of the upper rung in my assessment... And the last one available... I wanted one of those guys and getting one of those guys was my personal litmus test for the off season. I'm bummed... But... It was my assessment and my plan. TR isn't following my plan and I won't throw rocks at him because he isn't.

Cdog... North... Glunn... Chief... Jokin... Puck... Shane... Hammer... Nurse and Charger would all have different plans than I... And different plans from each other.

For reasons past our understanding... This is TR's plan and come what May.

I would think that I won't get too many boulders thrown at me for no proof but I think most on this board have an attachment for the aTwins. Many on this board have ideas and a plan about what should be done. All are fairly confident in their thinking. None of us have any power for those plans. TR had a plan when he took over. It worked fairly well even though it took a while. Is there a plan now? He isn't going to share. What players you target and why only gives information to others that they could use against him. If you project out what players might be available that you like it might be considered tampering. It might cause other teams to take a harder look. He does tell you which of his players he likes.

Before Shaun Marcum signed a one-year contract with the Mets on Friday, he had talks with both the Rangers and Mariners.

This would seem to indicate that both squads are still in the market for a starting pitcher. The Rangers indicated on Thursday that they aren't pursuing Kyle Lohse, widely regarded as the top free agent starter remaining on the market.
Related: Mariners, Rangers, Kyle Lohse

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

The weather? Maybe for the Timberwolves. An MLB player won't be in town until April 1st and can be long gone by November 1st at the latest. Zero reason to avoid signing with the Twins because it's 'too cold.' Even folks who buy the misconception about the weather generally aren't going to be afraid of living here during the summer.

In general, there's no reason the Twins can't be similar to St. Louis, both in terms of payroll and marketability.

Originally Posted by jokin

On flippable assets, you're not really getting this. You build depth from below, in that you then create expendable tradeable & coveted assets- these theoretically become Perkins and Burton- if they continue their progression. Hopefully, they can be traded for prospects at positions of weakness as the position players come off the books and the draft picks move up to take the place of your tradeable assets from a now-developing position of strength. The WAR question in your first paragraph is key, it's not so much a goal as "turning a season around" all by itself. Create areas of strength and depth in as efficient a manner as possible, thus developing incremental improvements in each aspect of the team. Making a proposed turnaround in the bullpen in the proportions close to what I outlined is certain to make the 1000s of players and agents around the various levels of baseball sit up and take notice, particularly the bounty of potential FA starters this offseason, for example, in making the Twins recognized as a team serious about developing a consistent winner.

Range of opinion on the SPs I proffered? Their numbers and projections suggest how mediocre to very good they are, opinions may vary, sure. Jackson went to the Cubs, Marcum to the Mets, McCarthy to the D-Backs. Sorry... but Winning/Losing wasn't the make or break factor on ANY these deals. Nuff said here.

On the proposed SP pick-ups, even those such as the lowly #4-5 projections like Lannan and Francis, they sadly all represent potential upgrades, to at least some, if not most, on this lowly Twins pitching depth chart, and they were available for spit, and represented potential value when compared to Correia or Saunders. Again, incremental improvement-seeking, building the franchise back up one brick at a time, finding the next Burton, Dickey, Diamond along the way is all part of that dynamic process.

A 1989 K car with 200000 miles on it would be an upgrade over 1 1981 K car with 240000 miles on it. Incremental improvement and you are still left with a piece of junk.
Flipable assests. You are going to trade starting with a a bobby pin. 400 trades later get a Porche? You watch too much TV
Good night. I am done with this topic. Go post the last word as you always apeear to do.

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

RB, I'm a TR fan, I think he's a shrewd baseball man and has a firm grasp of his plan regarding the big picture. But I think it's fair at this point to lay some criticism at his feet in the way he has handled this off-season as it relates to 2013.

One of two things are evident, the plan he strongly indicated he was going to implement early on, was never really a plan and he was in full spin mode or he actually thinks he fulfilled that plan and is satisfied with the results. Either way, it's unacceptable as it relates to payroll, the players he's acquired and the message he's trying to send the fans.

i don't know if fair is the right word but I certainly understand the criticism.

If no one was criticizing... This forum would float away into nothingness... If no one was defending... It would sink to the bowels of hell.

I am at the point where I can't even say that I'm defending his moves in total thus far. I'm defending his right to finish the job. At some point... You gotta make a call one way or another... Terry Ryan can rebuild this club or he can't. I'm trying to trust that he can.

Originally Posted by Riverbrian

I'm a Kool Aid guy obviously... This batch doesn't have enough sugar in it but down the hatch.

My hope will be simple. Keep the 6 plus ERA guys off the mound. If anyone is throwing 6 plus... replace him with the next option. If they can do that. This team will be much better and more importantly... We can find out about the rest of the team... Because they will be in ball games... If they are in ball games... We can better assess what they have to offer and what we have for 2014. This could be TR's plan. Or not.

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Not the greatest plan. But sounds solid to me.

Originally Posted by howeda7

The weather? Maybe for the Timberwolves. An MLB player won't be in town until April 1st and can be long gone by November 1st at the latest. Zero reason to avoid signing with the Twins because it's 'too cold.' Even folks who buy the misconception about the weather generally aren't going to be afraid of living here during the summer.

In general, there's no reason the Twins can't be similar to St. Louis, both in terms of payroll and marketability.

I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here? Everyone is getting on TR about what he is not doing. Tell me your conversation as GM (besides money) to getr FA here. Because players do care about family and other things when it comes to FA signing.

Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

I'm on your side about MN now - I'm just defending TRs challenge. Let's hear your sell as TR/GM.........

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Not the greatest plan. But sounds solid to me.

Don't play ****ty players. Quite the master plan you guys are agreeing on here.

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

The only selling point to be made to Lohse should be this: "Don't let the door stop you this time. Finish the job."

(You really couldn't find a worse example than Lohse for this hypothetical.)

Loshe is the last guy standing was my only reason - Good point though . Sell me on FA "A" then - Why should I come to the Twins?

This article explains Ryans plan (satisfactory or not to your thought process) - But explains his philosophy. Let's see how season pans out and if the Twins are a better product. Plus let's see if we get more useable products (AAA prospects) via mid season trades to build upon. Let the man work his plan. Terry Ryan: Minnesota Twins Will Not be Fixed Via Free Agency

Mets state they have Marcum penciled in as thier 5th starter.
MLB.com Hot Stove | Mets address rotation with addition of Marcum - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

and

MLB.com Hot Stove | Saunders looks forward to playing with Ibanez, Morse - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

This article explains Ryans plan (satisfactory or not to your thought process) - But explains his philosophy. Let's see how season pans out and if the Twins are a better product. Plus let's see if we get more useable products (AAA prospects) via mid season trades to build upon. Let the man work his plan. Terry Ryan: Minnesota Twins Will Not be Fixed Via Free Agency

The problem with his logic is, you also can't "fix" a team solely through your farm system. The good teams tend to have strong returns on both fronts. They draft well for a solid core of a team, and spend some smart money on the market to supplement their roster holes. Ryan seems content on punting the entire FA aspect of the equation, despite having numerous gaping holes, primarily in the rotation and middle infield. With little help on the near horizon for either of those situations, a little aggression on the free agent front may be the only near-to-mid term way to address them, even if it's with mediocre players that serve as upgrades to the dreck that's been manning the spots in recent years. Build exclusively one-dimensionally, and you get the Royals of the past decade, with always a bunch of prospects "on the verge of breaking out" but never enough to field a competitive team. And then, as soon as another group comes up, the older ones have established themselves and priced their way out of town.

Ryan, or anyone trying to defend his inactivity, can claim this was a "weak crop" of FA this year, but does anyone have faith in Ryan making a splash in a "better crop" next year or any year going forward? Good players command more money in the first place, and with revenues going up across the board next year it will likely only add to the prices players will be seeking on the open market. When a GM is notoriously against "overpaying" for free agents, then he's probably not going to be interested in delving into a market which will be rapidly accelerating itself beyond what he considers "fair pricing".

We're not in the "Holy cow, Kirby Puckett is making a million dollars a year!" days anymore, much to Ryan's chagrin. Values go up every year, and the contracts he considered "too high" this year will be laughable offers for comparable players going forward. He's still got his "Dome in the late 90's budget" mentality when it comes to spending money, and while trying to find bargains is fine, when you need players to improve significant portions of your roster to, whaddayacallit, "not terrible" standards, you aren't going to find enough of those players by rolling the dice 5 times on guys like Harden whose arm was manufactured in the same factory as Shannon Stewart's hamstrings. Sometimes, you have to pay to bring in some mid-tier guys (unlike Kevin Correia, who still inexplicably got paid more, and for more years, than superior options) to supplement your existing players. On a good team, they're ideally chewing up innings on the back end of the rotation, but on the Twins, they would be key components of the team being less terrible than the past two years. They shouldn't be expected to be world beaters, but they won't be Blackburn, either. (Except Correia, because he very well may be Blackburn 2.0.)

Ryan is running the Twins as a small market franchise. He cannot do it any other way.
Unfortunately, the small market aspect ends when you step up to the ticket window.

Originally Posted by FrodaddyG

Don't play ****ty players. Quite the master plan you guys are agreeing on here.

Terry Ryan is the GM Fro.....That means he is the general manager.

That means Terry Ryan is in charge of general managing the Twins. Who play in Minnesota......that's who he general manages.

He has a plan. It's to have players play baseball that he general manages. I believe in him.....afterall....he's generally managing them.

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here?

Let's start with getting our GM to do that much before we worry about the rest.

In May when Zach Wheeler is pitching lights out in AAA and Wilpon is still needing money Marcum will be available.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Terry Ryan is the GM Fro.....That means he is the general manager.

That means Terry Ryan is in charge of general managing the Twins. Who play in Minnesota......that's who he general manages.

He has a plan. It's to have players play baseball that he general manages. I believe in him.....afterall....he's generally managing them.

You are gonna keep coming... Directly or indirectly... You really want to start something... It's obvious to all what you are doing... Ill just take the punches... And keep asking you to ignore me... My 4th request.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Terry Ryan is the GM Fro.....That means he is the general manager.

That means Terry Ryan is in charge of general managing the Twins. Who play in Minnesota......that's who he general manages.

He has a plan. It's to have players play baseball that he general manages. I believe in him.....afterall....he's generally managing them.

I LOLed.

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here? Everyone is getting on TR about what he is not doing. Tell me your conversation as GM (besides money) to getr FA here. Because players do care about family and other things when it comes to FA signing..

Please cite at least one story or report where the Twins matched someone's offer and they went somewhere else simply because it's "Minnesota." Then, find a story where they actually exceeded someone's offer. We have seen people reference stories where the Twins offered less than everyone else or didn't make an offer at all, so where has this idea of competitive offers and then FA turning them down come from simply because its MN?

This has become a popular narrative for people defending their lack of spending money with no proof.

Originally Posted by lightfoot789

Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

yeah, Boras clients. They're so fickle about non-monetary incentives.

Give it a rest