Marcum To Mets

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Originally Posted by CDog

Complaining about the complaining about the complaining is way, way cooler than complaining about the complaining.

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Snark directed at the complainer, of the complaining, about the complaining, is personally where I draw the line.


Completely unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

As to a refocus of wrath, I'm not so sure this is true of all but a few. On the second point, it's a matter of definition. And expectations. My expectation has been modest. The notion of CONTENDING in 2013 is and has been a pipe dream, even if we added three pitchers not named Greinke and Sanchez in my opinion. So, I was hoping that, when I turned on the game, I'd have close to a 50% chance of seeing a win. To do that, Ryan needed to sign TWO guys as good or better than Diamond, and trade for another. I would be happy with that, for 2013, especially given how much Meyer and May add to my hope for 2015 and beyond. Being COMPETITIVE, game to game, would sure be nice.

By current appearances, consistantly competing game to game is not gonna happen, and I'm feeling let down. Now, appearances often fail to match reality, so I'm willing to see the results first before calling for Ryan's head. It could be we're all not quite as astute as we think we are, so I'm willing to wait and see if Ryan gets lucky. If 2013 is a third ugly season in a row, I'll shrug it off, knowing what's in the pipeline.

But yeah, it sure looks ugly right now.

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Hey bird! I've been waiting for you to pipe in on the offseason, thus far. I give you great credit for honesty about the utter failure it has been, thus far.

PS- I'd still be happy to do cartwheels and sing TR's praises from the rooftops before the season opener, but with what's left to be picked over and/or acquired in trade makes even a meek "I told you so" a pathetically sad gesture about this once-proud franchise.

The writing was on the wall concerning FA starting pitchers when the Twins failed to match the Cubs offer to Baker. Looking back now, the die was cast at that moment.

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Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

The writing was on the wall concerning FA starting pitchers when the Twins failed to match the Cubs offer to Baker. Looking back now, the die was cast at that moment.

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Don't you think that the well was already poisoned by the Twins FO in the ways they mishandled Baker's injury? ( ie., Multiple misdiagnoses and the Publicl whispering campaign that Baker wasn't "manning up" and pitching through the pain).

BTW, I always meant to ask you if the snickering about the Correia deal has died down yet in Pittsburgh...

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Originally Posted by twinsfaninsaudi

I am gonna go ahead and predict that Kevin Correia pitches more innings than Shaun Marcum this year and there is a less than .8 disparity in their ERAs. No adjustment for different leagues needed.

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Care to speculate on their final WAR rankings? Marcum has averaged 2.6 WAR over the last 3 seasons, Correia has averaged 0.27 WAR.

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Originally Posted by jokin

Don't you think that the well was already poisoned by the Twins FO in the ways they mishandled Baker's injury? ( ie., Multiple misdiagnoses and the Publicl whispering campaign that Baker wasn't "manning up" and pitching through the pain).

BTW, I always meant to ask you if the snickering about the Correia deal has died down yet in Pittsburgh...

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It would border on conspiracy theory that the Twins in spring training 2012 had determined to ruin Baker, not resign him the following offseason and refuse to acquire good pitching in his stead. That's also giving the Twins forethought way to much credit. Part of this scenario was probably Baker not wanting to entrust his livelihood to a medical staff and FO that was incompetent (in his mind at least -- maybe). I just think that when we saw the Twins not up their bid for their best pitcher since Santana, we should have know then (as many suspected) that TR's words about "getting a pretty darn good pitcher" were hollow.

Concerning KC, there hasn't been much said since the Twins penned him. Not as if the Bucs lost an asset or anything to complain about. Kinda the complete opposite of losing Baker. I've been trying to tell people that Liriano's bathroom fall is probably a good thing for the team. ;)

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Originally Posted by jokin

Don't you think that the well was already poisoned by the Twins FO in the ways they mishandled Baker's injury? ( ie., Multiple misdiagnoses and the Publicl whispering campaign that Baker wasn't "manning up" and pitching through the pain).

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Watch out. I'm pretty sure I remember being told that having an opinion of the Twins' training and medical staff without being a doctor was akin to practicing medicine without a license. The fact that Ryan himself admitted that one of his first tasks upon resuming GM duties would be to reevaluate the people and process of the training staff did not change the off-limits nature of questioning it, if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

It would border on conspiracy theory that the Twins in spring training 2012 had determined to ruin Baker, not resign him the following offseason and refuse to acquire good pitching in his stead. That's also giving the Twins forethought way to much credit. Part of this scenario was probably Baker not wanting to entrust his livelihood to a medical staff and FO that was incompetent (in his mind at least -- maybe). I just think that when we saw the Twins not up their bid for their best pitcher since Santana, we should have know then (as many suspected) that TR's words about "getting a pretty darn good pitcher" were hollow.

Concerning KC, there hasn't been much said since the Twins penned him. Not as if the Bucs lost an asset or anything to complain about. Kinda the complete opposite of losing Baker. I've been trying to tell people that Liriano's bathroom fall is probably a good thing for the team. ;)

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I concur about the "hollowness" of the message to Twins fans.

On Conspiracy Theories, I don't think the Twins were trying to ruin Baker, more like they were in bitter, self-preservation, CYA mode when their No. 1 pitching option going into 2012 was going down the tubes, which they possibly felt could have had some of the residual blame layed at their feet due to poor medical treatment. I think your second sentence was where I was primarily headed in the well-poisoning perception- coming more from the Scott Baker camp.

LOL about Liriano.

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Originally Posted by LaBombo

Watch out. I'm pretty sure I remember being told that having an opinion of the Twins' training and medical staff without being a doctor was akin to practicing medicine without a license.

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Along with different statements that basically boil down to: 'since you've never been a GM/Big League Manager, you don't know what you're talking about and have no right to complain.'

P.S., before I get slammed again, I'm not talking about this thread...just in general. Comments that come out when Ryan/Gardy defenders have nowhere to go but to use that kind of debating tactic.

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

Along with different statements that basically boil down to: 'since you've never been a GM/Big League Manager, you don't know what you're talking about and have no right to complain.'

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One can only hope that those people are following their own advice and, because they aren't politicians, are forfeiting their right to vote.

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Originally Posted by Kwak

It seems that reality is appearing. All those "promises" in October were simply empty as the "Kool-Aid" was being poured for the eager fanbase to lap up. The real plan was a significant payroll reduction with a small number of [relatively] inexpensive place-holders acquired to erase the image of a failed pitching staff. Substantial improvement wasn't part of the plan, just different faces that had experience at the major league level to replace the previous rotation. I project that 2014 will be much the same--but with an emergence of some of the "prospects" at the major league level. The 2013 season will be as much of a throw-away as 2012--but with a lower payroll and a slightly different flavor of "Kool-Aid".

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So just a repeat of last year?

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Originally Posted by drjim

I apologize for engaging with comments and providing contrary ideas and thoughts. I could see why you wouldn't want that on a message board.

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The problem is this this beef people seem to have with frustrated fans. Having a different take is fine. But anyone with a functioning brainstem should at least be able to understand why people are frustrated and not constantly jump into every thread to complain that there is too much negativity. That's my beef, you were just the first one to do this in this thread.

I can't possibly top snepp's snarky response to Cdog's nonsense, well played there sir. I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by LaBombo

Watch out. I'm pretty sure I remember being told that having an opinion of the Twins' training and medical staff without being a doctor was akin to practicing medicine without a license. The fact that Ryan himself admitted that one of his first tasks upon resuming GM duties would be to reevaluate the people and process of the training staff did not change the off-limits nature of questioning it, if I recall correctly.

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Yeah, that's not what happened at all. Most people were arguing that Ryan needed more than two months to make a change (which he did after the season), not that there wasn't a problem (which Ryan himself admitted).

As for another tired refrain: To those who keep saying "2013 was a lost cause anyway....." - the problem is that even if that's true it doesn't justify the Pohlad's pocketing money when there were still clear areas the team could still improve itself. There is ZERO excuse for that. So long as they are this cushioned (20-25M give or take) that argument needs to stop. It has no merit whatsoever.

I have long been saying that the team needs to go into a rebuild. But that should never stop you from acquiring assets if you can do so. You never know how they will benefit you (signed long term, traded for other assets, etc.) so you do it if you can regardless of how you expect the team to perform. You especially do this when they are not blocking any significant young talent. So any acquisition at SP or MI would've fit this perfectly. And we swung a big stinking 0-fer in FA this year. People have a right to be pissed.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Yeah, that's not what happened at all. Most people were arguing that Ryan needed more than two months to make a change (which he did after the season), not that there wasn't a problem (which Ryan himself admitted).

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Yeah, actually it did, Brock, and you're one of people who did so:

"I'm not a doctor. In all likelihood, nobody here is a doctor or even involved enough in the medical profession to do anything except speculate wildly over half-truths and diagnoses not seen by anyone outside of the medical staff and the organization

We know virtually nothing. In short, there are a hell of a lot of people going off half-cocked about a situation they don't even understand. They don't have the slightest clue how the medical profession works, how the system operates, and whether the Twins are doing anything right or wrong.

And in life, I've generally found that it's best to shut up when you don't know something."

That's you telling everybody to STFU about the medical staff after a Nick Nelson article basically telling everyone to STFU about the medical staff, because nobody is qualified to have an opinion about it. By that logic, any comments by Ryan regarding the training and medical staff are immaterial. Whatever he said, we're still just uneducated oafs who have no business having an opinion about it.

If you believe that, it's fine, I get it but don't agree, but don't say it didn't happen.

If your wife sent you to the market to get eggs,bread, and a gallon of milk ,and you returned with a 12 pack of hams and a carton of luckys , do you think she would be happy?

entering the off season 99.5% of the fans knew we needed 2 front of the rotation starters , and middle infield help.

Now that the off season is soon to be over , our needs are 2 front of the rotation pitcher, middle infield help and a center fielder...
the only thing Terry accomplished was the removal of 15 million dollars from the payroll ...well at least he is happy

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Originally Posted by LaBombo

Yeah, actually it did, Brock, and you're one of people who did so:

"I'm not a doctor. In all likelihood, nobody here is a doctor or even involved enough in the medical profession to do anything except speculate wildly over half-truths and diagnoses not seen by anyone outside of the medical staff and the organization

We know virtually nothing. In short, there are a hell of a lot of people going off half-cocked about a situation they don't even understand. They don't have the slightest clue how the medical profession works, how the system operates, and whether the Twins are doing anything right or wrong.

And in life, I've generally found that it's best to shut up when you don't know something."

That's you telling everybody to STFU about the medical staff after a Nick Nelson article basically telling everyone to STFU about the medical staff, because nobody is qualified to have an opinion about it. By that logic, any comments by Ryan regarding the training and medical staff are immaterial. Whatever he said, we're still just uneducated oafs who have no business having an opinion about it.

If you believe that, it's fine, I get it but don't agree, but don't say it didn't happen.

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Pretty awesome that you didn't quote this post of mine from the same thread:

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I don't believe the medicalstaff is doing a good job. That's not my point nor do I believe it to be Nick's point. It's easy to sit on your couch and "diagnose" maladies, especially when using the rearview mirror. It's even easier when you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about (is anyone here qualified enough to make even the smallest statement about the medical treatment of athletes?).

No one is arguing that the medical staff is doing a good job. From the outside, it looks pretty bad to a layman. But remember that last word, layman.

People need to stop pretending that they have the slightest clue what is going on behind closed doors and they need to stop pretending that they have the medical knowledge to properly understand if someone is doing a bad job in the first place. I want to see the medical situation "fixed" as much as anyone but I'm also smart (and honest) enough to know that I don't have the slightest friggin' clue what I'm talking about.

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Um, bravo? I'm pretty sure I state that I think the medical staff is doing a bad job, I'm just honest enough to admit that I don't know **** about being a doctor.

Marcum was the last of the somewhat upper tier choices. I was really hoping for one of those guys and prepared for disapointment.

I'm officially down on the off-season now.

I could care less about Correia and don't feel his signing with us was an example of anything. Let him throw... Let's see what happens...

Not signing Marcum or a pitcher above him is an example of something in my mind.

With that said... I'm still fully prepared to let Terry Ryan and staff do their jobs.

If we are not in contention by 2015.

Jokin, Thrylos, Puck and everyone else will have to catch up to me in the throwing rocks at Terry Ryan department.

Until then... I'll just continue to read the comments and understand... why the comments are... what they are.

Come opening day... The game will be on and I will be watching and hoping we do some things to compete and I will be able to stick it out the whole year.

If I was able to do it in 2011... I can do it in 2013.

I'm tired of the Cold... Opening Day I still look forward to.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Pretty awesome that you didn't quote this post of mine from the same thread:
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Yeah, because reading all 76 comments was a huge priority for me. And why is another post where your further hector people for having an opinion supposed to add some sort of critical context to the first one where you did it?

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Originally Posted by LaBombo

Yeah, because reading all 76 comments was a huge priority for me. And why is another post where your further hector people for having an opinion supposed to add some sort of critical context to the first one where you did it?

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You had to skip past the quote I posted to get to the post you quoted.

And it matters because you took my quote out of context of that particular conversation. People were making insane statements about the medical staff and that was my rebuttal. It wasn't that I felt the medical staff was beyond reproach as you implied.