Marcum To Mets

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Originally Posted by gunnarthor

Sure, it's possible and then we basically have last year again. But complaining about not signing Marcum, with his injury issues, is probably not the right way to go. If this is your concern, Saunders would be the pitcher you want. Healthy and durable.

And the Twins future relies a lot more on guys like Gibson and Hendriks then stop gaps like Pelfrey, Correia and Marcum. May and Meyer will both be in AA (Meyer might start at A+ but he did finish in AA last year although Twins might wait for the weather to warm up) which means they are close to being called up if they are doing well.

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Nowhere was I complaining about not signing Marcum - just stating how if we stand pat with what we have, how there is a better chance we relive another pitching nightmare all year then we have a chance of everything clicking for us and going well.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

But right now, this is awful. Just awful. Thus far this offseason, Ryan has done nothing but mismanage the free agent market.

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Yup, Ryan got worked over by Jed Hoyer, Theo Epstein and the Cubs right away in free agency and never managed to recover. Indefensible; as one of only 30 GM's you have to be able to adjust the off season game plan when things don't go as you expect.

Even Saundes wouldn't rectify the situation in my opinion. Signing a #4 starter only looks good because most of the other arms are swingmen. This club needed better than that.

I would love for Parker Hageman to do one of his scouting reports comparing the pitching styles of Cole DeVries and Shaun Marcum. they both throw 87 MPH.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

It's not about Marcum and you know that about me. It's about this entire offseason and how the free agent market has been handled. Ryan hasn't even picked up a mediocre arm. Despite having a bunch of money, the worst pitching staff in baseball, and a plethora of free agent arms to be had (some for short term deals), the most he could come up with was Kevin Correia.

If he signs Saunders, some of my vitriol will wane. But right now, this is awful. Just awful. Thus far this offseason, Ryan has done nothing but mismanage the free agent market.

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These are my feelings as well. Marcum's arm troubles could be the end of his career for all we know. It's just that it seems as though Ryan is operating with some set of rules that no other teams are. And for the record, while signing Saunders will be an improvement, he was actually one of the guys I thought the Twins should avoid, his upside is very limited but he'll get paid more than other FAs because of his W/L record. It just seems to me that Ryan either is a poor judge of talent when it comes to pitching or he doesn't understand the pitching market anymore. With the Twins situation, resources and the mid to low-level talent in this years FA pool, he could have easily added 2-3 more guys that would have been a huge upgrade over what we had - guys that had upside and could have been flipped at the deadline for talent that could help us in 2014 or 15. Let's not forget Toronto was able to turn Marcum into Brett Lawrie just two years ago - and he had a history of arm trouble prior to that deal.

Thank goodness for drjim. Without him we wouldn't have had our obligatory "people are complaining too much" comment. No thread is complete without that annoying, whiny crap these days. God forbid passionate fans vent. You'll note that we blew up in celebration of his trades but overall we have been given a steaming pile of BS to chew on about this offseason and we're rightly pissed.

Get over it cast of characters saying that crap. Posy a fairy tale thread to be positive in and leave reality to the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by USAFChief

I don't accept "vast overpay" as fact, but assuming it is true, then vastly overpay. It's not like money is a problem for this team, now or in the future. What they've done instead is "vastly underpay." I hope all of you who worry so much about the Pohlad's finances are happy.

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I was thinking years moreso than money. The only long term deal I had any interest in was Greinke and pretty sure the Twins weren't going to outbid the Dodgers.

I'm pretty confident you worry more about the Pohlad's finances than anyone else on the board. I don't especially care if they make a profit.

Lets calm down--we added a solid pitcher (Worley) a mediocre pitcher (Correia), and two prospects (May and Meyer--Nats fans I talk to here think we got a steal). We also added two pitchers (who if healthy) could get 12-15 wins (but doubtful given health and poor Twins defense) in Harden and Pelfrey. In TR's defense why add a third pitcher in that category (Marcum) who had major health issues last year.

In truth, Neither Harden, Pelfrey or Marcum will be here in 2015 anyway.

Agreed, if spending money is an issue, baseball would force all teams to spend an amount in a small window(hard cap). Marcum may have arm issues we are not aware of, I suggest most of you wait and see how it turns out before calling for the lynching.

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Originally Posted by kab21

Marcum has something like a 3.60 ERA over the last 4 seasons. He might not be a #1 but he's a strong #2 on a team that hopes to have a couple of #3's in front of a couple of #5's. The biggest reason that Marcum was a good target to sign is that if he's healthy then it's likely that he can be flipped for something pretty good at the deadline. Guys like Saunders, Correia and Pelfrey will barely bring in a prospect. This is the biggest fail of the offseason. they didn't acquire any FA's that will significantly help this season and none of them have any trade value. The only good thing regarding FA is that they didn't blow a ridiculous amount of money on an average, declining player.

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Not employing this strategy and not spending the full draft allocation last year are by far my biggest complaints about the front office the past year.

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Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans

In TR's defense why add a third pitcher in that category (Marcum) who had major health issues last year.

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One good reason is that Marcum's last good season was not 2009.

Taking a flyer on Pelfry and Harden were good secondary moves but relying on those guys to come back and be productive pitchers is utterly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

One good reason is that Marcum's last good season was not 2009.

Taking a flyer on Pelfry and Harden were good secondary moves but relying on those guys to come back and be productive pitchers is utterly ridiculous.

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additionally, some seem to think it's a foregone conclusion Worley is a #3 type pitcher. He's only been in the bigs 2 seasons, had one very good year and one ok year. Thing is though, he hasn't pitched even 135 innings in either season and he was hurt last year. We don't know what we have with him yet. Granted, I'm optimistic too, but it's not like we know we have a solid #3 guy who is gonna get us 170+ innings with an ERA around 4.00.

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Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Thank goodness for drjim. Without him we wouldn't have had our obligatory "people are complaining too much" comment. No thread is complete without that annoying, whiny crap these days. God forbid passionate fans vent. You'll note that we blew up in celebration of his trades but overall we have been given a steaming pile of BS to chew on about this offseason and we're rightly pissed.

Get over it cast of characters saying that crap. Posy a fairy tale thread to be positive in and leave reality to the rest of us.

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I apologize for engaging with comments and providing contrary ideas and thoughts. I could see why you wouldn't want that on a message board.

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

additionally, some seem to think it's a foregone conclusion Worley is a #3 type pitcher. He's only been in the bigs 2 seasons, had one very good year and one ok year. Thing is though, he hasn't pitched even 135 innings in either season and he was hurt last year. We don't know what we have with him yet. Granted, I'm optimistic too, but it's not like we know we have a solid #3 guy who is gonna get us 170+ innings with an ERA around 4.00.

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That's mostly true, however, he ate a lot of innings in the minors. He threw 150 innings as a 21 yr old, 170 as a 22 year old and his rookie season he threw 180 between the majors and minors. I'm not overly worried about his durability, although it's something you always worry a bit about.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

One good reason is that Marcum's last good season was not 2009.

Taking a flyer on Pelfry and Harden were good secondary moves but relying on those guys to come back and be productive pitchers is utterly ridiculous.

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How would you feel if it was the exact same offseason but it was McCarthy or Marcum instead of Correia? No additional moves.

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Originally Posted by gunnarthor

That's mostly true, however, he ate a lot of innings in the minors. He threw 150 innings as a 21 yr old, 170 as a 22 year old and his rookie season he threw 180 between the majors and minors. I'm not overly worried about his durability, although it's something you always worry a bit about.

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He just had surgery...I worry about his health and durability. Again, I'm optimistic about him. What I'm saying is, and my point was always that, we really don't know what he is yet at the major league level.

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Originally Posted by drjim

How would you feel if it was the exact same offseason but it was McCarthy or Marcum instead of Correia? No additional moves.

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I wouldn't hate the offseason at that point but I wouldn't be terribly impressed, either. But couple those pitchers with the trades and I'd be generally positive.

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

I agree with this take. The Twins seem reluctant to 'game' the system in this way. Since we have payroll room, we shouldn't necessarily be trying to acquire assets to compete in 2013, rather we should be looking to acquire assets that could have trade value, and thus acquire future assets.

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I agree with your take on this take and have been advocating this for the last 2 years. Welcome over to the dark ("smug") side.:)

Last year Jim Crikket posted on the Knuckleballs blog about the need to spend more to field a semi-respectable team. I disagreed with him then because I felt like there were too many gambles with the health of Morneau, Mauer and Span to justify spending more than a starting payroll of $90-$95 million.

But we got some reasonably positive answers on those health questions. I just cannot see the justification for reducing the payroll another $15 million or more. Was there NO ONE out there on a 1 or 2 year deal who could help improve this team (even marginally)? No pitcher, no middle outfielder, no outfielder? Or maybe several someones. Yes, it might block some of the team's younger players but for the most part, most of them could benefit from some additional time in the minors anyway.

To me, the Twins payroll reduction is a blatant insult to fans. Especially their season ticket holders. Yes, as of now the off-season is still incomplete but every day that passes and every player that signs with another team is another slap in the face to Twins fans when from all reports the Twins haven't even made a legitimate attempt to sign most (if not all) of them.

This franchise owes it to their fans and the taxpayers of Minnesota to make a legitimate effort to sign the most competitive team that they can within reasonable budget figures (let's talk about the 50% policy Mr. St. Peter).

That's why the Marcum signing is frustrating -- not because he signed elsewhere but because it appears that the Twins aren't trying very hard to sign anyone.

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Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

I wouldn't hate the offseason at that point but I wouldn't be terribly impressed, either. But couple those pitchers with the trades and I'd be generally positive.

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The trades were necessary, good moves. But framing them as an either/or with a more aggressive approach in free agency makes no sense.

I believe that season ticket sales are tanking and a 15+million payroll cut is their reaction.
The Twins required the Season Ticket Holders to place their 2013 deposits a day after the season ended. During the renewal period, the GM made direct promises to this Group and for that matter the general Fan Base. Up to this point, Ryan has made very little effort to fulfill those commitments. This is one reason for much of the bitterness.