Marcum To Mets

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Originally Posted by panolo

Not how the game works in mid market baseball and you know that. The Twins don't just jettison folks. I have often wondered why someone has stayed at a level too long and not gotten a shot at moving up. Lotsa times it's a philosophical issue and many others there simply isn't enough room at the next level.

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So you're saying that "philosophically" the Twins Way is maintaining the status quo as the 30th ranked team in pitching, because as a mid-market team, the FO can't afford hurting someone's feelings if they've reached their Peter Principle level of incompetence? Now there's some dysfunctional pretzel logic that exemplifies why the FO should be swept clean.

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Originally Posted by lightfoot789

Or the various owners over the last 20+ just don't match offers.

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There, you're finally getting it.

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

Here's a conundrum for the Ryan appologists:

The Twins gave Mike Pelfrey $4 million.

The Mets gave Shawn Marcum $4 million.

If your logic says that Pelfrey wouldn't spurn the Mets for the small-market (BS), non-contending Twins, then that means the Mets didn't want the guy at $4 million or he would still be in NY. However the Mets did want Marcum at $4 million. So either players DON'T spurn the Twins for big markets, OR the Mets have fewer worries about the risk/reward of Marcum than they do the risk/reward of Pelfrey and the Mets are much more intimately familiar with Pelfrey.

Obviously option #2 is the reasoning behind this situation, but the fact that the Mets like Marcum over Pelfrey should have told the Twins that they too should have liked Marcum over Pelfrey.

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They couldn't tender Pelfrey a contract at $4mil. If Marcum hits zero incentives they would save a minimum of $600k by ditching Pelfrey.

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Originally Posted by panolo

They couldn't tender Pelfrey a contract at $4mil. If Marcum hits zero incentives they would save a minimum of $600k by ditching Pelfrey.

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Ahh, so the Mets are incentivized and invested in having Marcum fail, I see now....

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Originally Posted by jokin

So you're saying that "philosophically" the Twins Way is maintaining the status quo as the 30th ranked team in pitching, because as a mid-market team, the FO can't afford hurting someone's feelings if they've reached their Peter Principle level of incompetence? Now there's some dysfunctional pretzel logic that exemplifies why the FO should be swept clean.

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LOL! How you gleem that from my reply is funny to me. Yea their whole philosophy is stay at the bottom of the league in pitching. That's it. C'mon man!

They don't give up on folks very easily. They don't just give up on AAAA guys in 3 months. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by panolo

LOL! How you gleem that from my reply is funny to me. Yea their whole philosophy is stay at the bottom of the league in pitching. That's it. C'mon man!

They don't give up on folks very easily. They don't just give up on AAAA guys in 3 months. Hope this helps.

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No. Actually, it hurts....

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Originally Posted by panolo

They couldn't tender Pelfrey a contract at $4mil. If Marcum hits zero incentives they would save a minimum of $600k by ditching Pelfrey.

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And after the Mets non-tendered Pelfrey he became a free agent that could have signed with anybody, including the Mets.

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Originally Posted by panolo

. Yea their whole philosophy is stay at the bottom of the league in pitching. That's it. C'mon man!

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It would appear that is their phiosophy for 2013, what have they done to think otherwise?

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Originally Posted by panolo

LOL! How you gleem that from my reply is funny to me. Yea their whole philosophy is stay at the bottom of the league in pitching. That's it. C'mon man!

They don't give up on folks very easily. They don't just give up on AAAA guys in 3 months. Hope this helps.

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That just made Matt Fox cry.

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Originally Posted by jokin

Ahh, so the Mets are incentivized and invested in having Marcum fail, I see now....

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That's it! Wilpon needs to pay back the Madoff money and can do it this way.

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Originally Posted by jokin

I think it's even more telling that the Mets passed on Pelfrey!

Marcum could be more risky, but he's not coming off of September TJ (Pelfrey) and his last year of pitching effectiveness wasn't 2009 (Harden, w/ catastrophic shoulder surgery overlooming any potential comeback) or being extremely sucky for an entire career (Correia).

Also, Marcum was never a power pitcher and still has produced vastly superior "power pitcher"-like results over the alternatives who throw faster. His potential "bounceback" from his current medical issues won't be nearly as dependent on restoring velocity, just throwing his dime-store cutter and restoring overall command. Nearly 75% of what Pelfrey throws is FBs and Split-Finger FBs.... in addition....His career peripherals pale in comparison to Marcum's, if his FB starts to touch below 90 this year, he will be basically useless for 2013.

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This is a good point. Your medical theory is basically irrelevant but otherwise Pelfrey is an interesting comparison. I suppose that comes down to the known risks of Tommy John recovery versus the unknown risks of whatever is in Marcum's medicals. Marcum along with McCarthy were always my top two choices this offseason but the Brewers thought was giving to me by a good friend who is a diehard fan of them. I hadn't thought of it and thought it was worth sharing.

I don't see how a minor league deal with Harden is comparable to either of these deals. Correia is beyond a dead horse.

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

That just made Matt Fox cry.

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Outstandingly LOL-worthy

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Originally Posted by drjim

This is a good point. Your medical theory is basically irrelevant but otherwise Pelfrey is an interesting comparison. I suppose that comes down to the known risks of Tommy John recovery versus the unknown risks of whatever is in Marcum's medicals. Marcum along with McCarthy were always my top two choices this offseason but the Brewers thought was giving to me by a good friend who is a diehard fan of them. I hadn't thought of it and thought it was worth sharing.

I don't see how a minor league deal with Harden is comparable to either of these deals. Correia is beyond a dead horse.

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Actually, restoring velocity, or not, is highly relevant for pitchers that rely more heavily on velocity and TJ guys historically take up to 18 mos. post-TJ to regain their velocity. Pelfrey will be gone by then.

And the rest of my response was on what level of risks Ryan has taken in this offseason relative to the money spent. The point is, it is very possible that the $4+M plus incentives for Marcum is arguably the least risky move of all of the "risky" moves made so far this offseason.

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Originally Posted by panolo

LOL! How you gleem that from my reply is funny to me. Yea their whole philosophy is stay at the bottom of the league in pitching. That's it. C'mon man!

They don't give up on folks very easily. They don't just give up on AAAA guys. Hope this helps.

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

It would appear that is their phiosophy for 2013, what have they done to think otherwise?

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On the major league level... Not as much as the minor league level. However adding Worley and presumably Gibson for 125+ innings is going to help. We have no idea what we are going to get out of Pelfrey however if healthy he is an upgrade over Deduno and Walters.

Projections are just well....projections and we can argue that all day. Pitching will be better barring injury.

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

You can't pretend to know whether Marcum is any less of a health risk than Pelfry or Harden. You just don't know.

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One pitcher will be less than a year removed from TJ surgery. One pitcher threw 120+ innings in 2012 including 8 consecutive starts to finish the season. So while you are right, Marcum could fall down in the shower or slip shoveling his drive and rupture his spleen, logic says Marcum is less of a health risk in 2013.

Here's another way of looking at it. Would you prefer Gibson or Wimmers going forward?

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Originally Posted by jokin

Actually, restoring velocity, or not, is highly relevant for pitchers that rely more heavily on velocity and TJ guys historically take up to 18 mos. post-TJ to regain their velocity. Pelfrey will be gone by then.

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18 months used to be the norm and I think as we head in the future that number will decrease by a pretty fair amount. We are starting to see guys like Wainwright, Brett Anderson, and even Strasburg come back in about a year with near normal velocity and pitch well. Of course the timing of some surgeries skew in season stats.

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Originally Posted by panolo

On the major league level... Not as much as the minor league level. However adding Worley and presumably Gibson for 125+ innings is going to help. We have no idea what we are going to get out of Pelfrey however if healthy he is an upgrade over Deduno and Walters.

Projections are just well....projections and we can argue that all day. Pitching will be better barring injury.

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The bar is set extremely low. Just better isn't good enough. Significantly better is what we need.

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Originally Posted by edavis0308

A few things. You dont have to bold and underline everything. I do agree that it is because we havent offered equal contracts as other bidders. Getting top flight talent through free agency requires you to overbid. It is in the opinion that in the past 20 years, we havent offered equal money to top flight talent. That is correct.

Aw what the hell, I will throw in italics. Morris probably signed with the Twins because he was at the end of his career and teams probably didnt think he had anything left in the tank. Sounds like a reoccuring theme doesnt it?

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It also helps to throw in a random question mark here and there. Makes the whole thing much easier to comprehend.

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