Thread: Joe Saunders

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

Whether a pitcher’s win total should have an impact and whether it does have an impact are two different matters. I do think it’s something that a front office will look at in assessing the year a guy had. But if you prefer, you can take a look at various other areas where Pavano was strong in 2010. Point is that his contract following that campaign was – if anything – below what you’d expect and not “huge” by any stretch of the imagination.
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For 2011 he was the 40th best paid starting pitcher. By WAR in 2010 he was the 43. In better searching, I would say that he was paid about where he should have. The point I really got side tracked from was that the Twins could have been cheap and let him go. They had faith in Liriano to develop, Baker, Blackburn, and Slowey (13-6). They put forth the money. The Twins haven't been cheap with signing players within their organization to a contract even though they are eligible to be a free agent

Originally Posted by old nurse

For 2011 he was the 40th best paid starting pitcher. By WAR in 2010 he was the 43. In better searching, I would say that he was paid about where he should have. The point I really got side tracked from was that the Twins could have been cheap and let him go. They had faith in Liriano to develop, Baker, Blackburn, and Slowey (13-6). They put forth the money. The Twins haven't been cheap with signing players within their organization to a contract even though they are eligible to be a free agent

I really appreciate the research and you're right that it sounds like he was paid appropriately, but doesn't it point out exactly that the Twins were cheap in signing pitchers, which is really what the discussion is about?

The Twins paid Pavano (at at time they were actually spending a lot more on payroll) $8M dollars a year, less than 39 other pitchers in baseball and he was their #1 and opening day starter. While this may be more than they will likely spend this year on pitching, I think where he ranked says a lot about the Twins desire, or lack thereof, to spend on pitching. Of course, that year from what I gather, there really wasn't anything on the market, so that might not be a fair comparison either and he did get one of the top 3 contracts that year.

I'd agree that the Twins recently haven't seemed as afraid to sign their own players, especially under Smith, Capps was the only one I could think of recently...Nathan, Kubel, Cuddyer, and now Baker and Liriano have all waked. We don't have a lot of players who will test that anytime soon Morneau? though I'd guess he he'll be gone.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

It says a lot about the free agent acquisitions this offseason that I'd rejoice if the Twins landed Saunders.

Jesus, I need a drink.

Brock, Let's be honest with ourselves....at this point, we'd take a Jugs machine on a "Terry Mulholland" setting.

Originally Posted by old nurse

The Twins haven't been cheap with signing players within their organization to a contract even though they are eligible to be a free agent

Yet they are cheap with other team's pitchers. Why is it that they are fine re-signing Pavano and extending Radke, Santana, Baker, Blackburn, Milton and Mays yet when there is no one to extend they won't put the same effort into the pitching staff? The "We look after our own" atmosphere is cute and cuddley but is prohibitive when solutions are needed from outside the organization. Butera's pay is only a drop in the bucket, but did they really need to pay him more than most people thought he'd get in arbitration? Did they even need to extend him a MLB contract at all? If the team lost him to another team, there will probably be about 30 other number 3 catchers available before the season starts.

The Twins take the bird in the hand is better than two in the bush idiom way too seriously.

Saunders would definitely help the club next year and probably the two years following. It makes way too much sense to sign him for two years with an option for year #3. In looking at the long view, the Twins have gotten filler for 2013, at least, and maybe 2014 with Worley, Correia and Pelfrey. Adding Saunders would be more of the same, but one or more of these guys can/should emerge as a useful starter on a decent team. The future holds harder throwers, Gibson, May and Meyer and probably Berrios, who will be developed in the Twins upper minors. Acquiring such talent when it is ready to pitch in the majors is just too expensive.

Originally Posted by old nurse

The point I really got side tracked from was that the Twins could have been cheap and let him go. t

No, that was not the point. I said the Twins are hesitant to dole out big FA contracts. They are extremely hesitant to sign any pitchers to huge contracts - FA or not. You then countered with Pavano as a counter example of a "huge" contract. Not to mention Morneau and Mauer as counterexamples. (To what, I don't know) Either way, that Pavano remark is easily one of the most embarrassingly bad examples in internet history.

I'm fairly certain that is only light hyperbole.

Originally Posted by stringer bell

...In looking at the long view, the Twins have gotten filler for 2013, at least, and maybe 2014 with Worley, Correia and Pelfrey. Adding Saunders would be more of the same...

If for no other reason than that I need something to be optimistic about in 2013, I'm going to say that Worley doesn't deserve to be lumped in with those guys. Yet.

His ceiling may not be waaaay above a Saundersy sort of guy, but his 2011 and pre-injury 2012 performances are a cut above the filler guys. Whether he stays healthy and how his numbers translate to the AL, well, we'll see.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

Well, we all know how common it is for a rotation to go through a year without any injuries.

If you’re planning out this rotation based on the expectation that five guys are going to hold down spots all year you’re doing it wrong. I don’t know how this would not be painfully obvious to anyone who’s followed the team over the past few seasons (or any season, really).

That's why you have a crapload of AAAA pitchers along with some prospects. In case of injury. Look at the starters with MLB experience they already have this year (in no order) :

Harden
Pelfrey
Worley
Diamond
Correia
Hendriks
Blackburn
De Vries
Deduno
Walters
Vasquez
Elarton
Martis
Hernandez

add some of the ones who signed as MiLB FAs this year (Jason Lane, Michael O'Connor, Bryan Augenstein, Virgil Vasquez)
add the prospects Gibson, May and Meyer

and you really need Sanders (who is about as good as Diamond - a #3-4 pitcher) in case of injury? For 3 years?

That is enough to fill the rotations down to New Britain and beyond.

Originally Posted by old nurse

Last year they tried to get Buehrle, this year they were linked to Dempster. It is not as simple as you make it out to be.

Yes it is very hard to acquire quality players when your not the highest bidder and in the midst of being the worst team 2 years running

Originally Posted by thrylos98

and you really need Sanders (who is about as good as Diamond - a #3-4 pitcher) in case of injury? For 3 years?

That is enough to fill the rotations down to New Britain and beyond.

No, you don't sign him in case of injury, you sign him because with a couple of exceptions he's better than that entire list.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

No, that was not the point. I said the Twins are hesitant to dole out big FA contracts. They are extremely hesitant to sign any pitchers to huge contracts - FA or not. You then countered with Pavano as a counter example of a "huge" contract. Not to mention Morneau and Mauer as counterexamples. (To what, I don't know) Either way, that Pavano remark is easily one of the most embarrassingly bad examples in internet history.

I'm fairly certain that is only light hyperbole.

I know what point I was going to make. Your conjecture belongs in a bedpan. In terms of dollars per year by what starters were paid, in 2011 Pavano was well paid. The point you didn't bother to refute was they could have been even cheaper and let him go. In terms of length, I would hazzard a guess that may would say the contract was one year too long. It was fortunate that Marquis contract was only for one year. This is the first year that Ryan has had the need to chase after a free agent pitcher of higher quality. Do you really think that Grienke, Sanchez or Jackson were going to come here? Guthrie resigned with the club he was with. Who else signed a long term contract? No one.

Originally Posted by snepp

No, you don't sign him in case of injury, you sign him because with a couple of exceptions he's better than that entire list.

I don't think that he is any better than Worley or Diamond right now.
And I don't think that he is any better than a healthy Pelfrey. He is not better than a healthy Harden.
And I don't think that he is any better than Meyer, Gibson, May or Hendriks once they got their act together. (and probably Gibson is better than him at this point)

My point is that the Twins are not going anywhere this year. A #3 or #4 starter in a contender will not "save" them this season and very likely that 3 year contract will make him be like Blackburn was last season.

I'd rather see them play the kids who do have a future. He will make the Twins a 75 from a 70 win team? Is that worth a 3 year contract and $24 M and blocking the kids? Not in my book. I'd rather see them save that money and spend it on someone who can take them over the top once they are competitive again.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

It says a lot about the free agent acquisitions this offseason that I'd rejoice if the Twins landed Saunders.

Jesus, I need a drink.

Jesus isnt a bartender , but in fact a fisher of men

Originally Posted by thrylos98

I don't think that he is any better than Worley or Diamond right now.
And I don't think that he is any better than a healthy Pelfrey. He is not better than a healthy Harden.
And I don't think that he is any better than Meyer, Gibson, May or Hendriks once they got their act together. (and probably Gibson is better than him at this point)

My point is that the Twins are not going anywhere this year. A #3 or #4 starter in a contender will not "save" them this season and very likely that 3 year contract will make him be like Blackburn was last season.

I'd rather see them play the kids who do have a future. He will make the Twins a 75 from a 70 win team? Is that worth a 3 year contract and $24 M and blocking the kids? Not in my book. I'd rather see them save that money and spend it on someone who can take them over the top once they are competitive again.

Pelfrey isn't healthy yet and is on a one year contract.
Meyer and May? No here yet.
Gibson hasn't thrown a major league inning.
Hendriks hasn't thrown a quality major league inning.

Take your "not "save" them this season" strawman elsewhere. He wouldn't be blocking anybody, he would be, at worst, pushing a still-injured pitcher coming off serious elbow surgery out of the rotation.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

That's why you have a crapload of AAAA pitchers along with some prospects. In case of injury. Look at the starters with MLB experience they already have this year (in no order) :

Harden
Pelfrey
Worley
Diamond
Correia
Hendriks
Blackburn
De Vries
Deduno
Walters
Vasquez
Elarton
Martis
Hernandez

add some of the ones who signed as MiLB FAs this year (Jason Lane, Michael O'Connor, Bryan Augenstein, Virgil Vasquez)
add the prospects Gibson, May and Meyer

and you really need Sanders (who is about as good as Diamond - a #3-4 pitcher) in case of injury? For 3 years?

That is enough to fill the rotations down to New Britain and beyond.

Signing Saunders gives the Twins three guys who have shown the ability to be league average or better. Chances are that he won't be pushing Gibson or Hendriks out of the rotation, he'll be pushing out Correia, Pelfrey, or Harden.

And that's a good thing. Besides, Gibson can't pitch anything close to a full season anyway.

Originally Posted by old nurse

In terms of dollars per year by what starters were paid, in 2011 Pavano was well paid.

So your problem is that you are illiterate? Seeing as how you can't understand my point, I fail to see the need to respond to any others you have. By your logic - Correia was a "huge" contract. Doubling down on this embarrassing nonsense seems like a bad decision.

But I'm done feeding the trolls. Either post an actual "huge" contract given to a pitcher by this team or give us that citation for you 3/39 offer to Buerhle or by all that is holy stop trolling!

Originally Posted by old nurse

Your conjecture belongs in a bedpan

I'm keeping this as one of my favorites from this site.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

But I'm done feeding the trolls...by all that is holy stop trolling!

This is another good one.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Signing Saunders gives the Twins three guys who have shown the ability to be league average or better. Chances are that he won't be pushing Gibson or Hendriks out of the rotation, he'll be pushing out Correia, Pelfrey, or Harden.

And that's a good thing. Besides, Gibson can't pitch anything close to a full season anyway.

I can see Correia being pushed out of the rotation, if fact I expect that, but if Pelfrey or Harden fail to acquire, or hold on to rotation spots, it most assuredly will be due to health issues. Which is probably the major reason Saunders is being considered in the first place, just too many ifs to not consider a solid, if unspectacular innings eater.

Hopefully their reported pursuit of Saunders shows they aren't naive enough this time around to stand pat when having so much injury concern and ineptitude to rely on..