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I'll agree that, with Glavine and Maddux entering the ballot next year, it doesn't look like Morris will get into the Hall via the BBWAA election.
But guys like Morris are exactly why the Veterans' Committee exists. He'll be in eventually.
I think Morris' candidacy has become pretty political and it doesn't look good for either side. I wish someone who is a stat head would come out in support of him. Going by fWAR, Morris avg more WAR per season than a guy like Tim Raines and had just as many 4WAR seasons. I've read a million times that Stieb was the better pitcher yet Morris had more career WAR and a higher WAR/season. And if you gave Stieb 100 more complete games, Morris still threw more innings. His career WAR is higher than HOFers like Jim Palmer, Carl Hubbell and Chief Bender.
You also hear that Morris had one good post season game but you don't remember that in his first 5 WS games he was 4-0 with 1.97 ERA.
according to baseball reference, Mike Mussina is on the ballot next year.
stack Mussina next to Morris and the traditional stats say Mussina was a little bit better.
Brad Radke accumulated 42.6 bWAR in 12 seasons, whereas Morris accumulated 39.3 bWAR in 18 seasons. Radke had a career ERA+ of 113, while Morris' is 105. Their career post-season ERAs are virtually equivalent despite Radke pitching in a more offense heavy era (Radke 3.60, Morris 3.80).
In K/9 Morris holds a clear edge, as he pitched during an era of fewer strikeouts and still struck out more, but his K/BB ratio is not even in the same ballpark as Radke, which is why Morris had a higher WHIP.
The fact that the two can be compared--oftentimes to Radke's favor--does not speak well for Morris. Radke got two votes in his only year of eligibility, and I would have rather had an in his prime Radke over an in his prime Morris.
Morris' postseason: ERA: 3.80Quote:
Originally Posted by benchwarmerjim
Mussina's postseason: ERA 3.42
Morris' career ERA is 3.90
Mussina's career ERA is 3.68
Morris' career ERA+: 105
Mussina's career ERA+: 123
Mussina had more Ks, better K/BB ratio, better K/9, better BB/9, a better WHIP, more Ks, less HR allowed...and for those who care about the win stat, and most Morris' HOF backers hang their hat on that stat, more wins as well. All that in a more hitter friendly time.
They don't seem too close, IMO
I'm a Twins fan, so I vote for Jack.
All that is true. Radke is one of the most under rated pitchers of his generation. He had as many 5 WAR seasons as Beckett and Lackey combined, for instance. His avg WAR/season (fWAR or bWAR) is higher than a lot of candidates - Raines, Trammel, Murphy etc. People looked at his lack of strikeouts and stopped looking. But over his 12 years in the league, he was 10th in WAR, behind 7 HOFers, and two roiders - Pettitte and Kevin Brown. He amassed more WAR than Glavine. Stunningly under rated pitcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by mgraves
That said, Morris does have 1400 more innings on him. Basically, Radke could throw 150 more complete games and still be short. And fWAR rates Morris a lot better than bWAR. As mentioned, it rates him better than Jim Palmer.
Jack Morris does not belong in the Hall of Fame.
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Wahl
I know we all love Jack for what he did for the Twins in 91. We all love that he's from here. But no one can tell me that Morris is a slam-dunk hall of famer. He's borderline. And in my opinion, anybody who is a borderline hall of famer is not a hall of famer. That includes Blyleven as well.
Maybe, maybe not. I tend to be a big hall guy so I think there's room for him. I think his durability has been pretty under rated and we'll see his WAR numbers go up once the stat heads start investigating the impact of ip on the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Wahl
Raines and Morris are interesting. WAR makes a better case for Raines than his traditional numbers and vice versa but it should be pointed out that both have good numbers in either traditional or new stats. Both are very good players and among the best to have played. That said, I suspect people tend to think that WAR is accurate to the decimal point. But there really isn't much difference between a 4.3 WAR and a 4.2 WAR, for instance. Raines has more career WAR but he played 23 seasons. On a per year basis, Morris avg slightly more (3.16 to 3.06). But that isn't really fair since Raines had a couple call up seasons, so if we exclude pre-rookie seasons, Raines is slightly ahead (3.37 to 3.31). But that isn't really fair to Morris, since he was a relief pitcher his rookie year. So if we adjust again, Morris is slightly ahead again (3.49 to 3.34). Interestingly, neither is very close to Radke's per season WAR - 3.85.
The other argument would be that Raines had a better peak, which is a good argument. From 83-87 he might have been the best player in the NL. But Morris had some strong seasons as well. If you accept that 3.9 is the same as 4.0, both had 8 4 WAR seasons, which means Morris was a 4 WAR player in 45% of his seasons compared to Raines 35%. If you don't accept 3.9WAR is no different than a 4.0 WAR, than Morris drops to 33%). Obviously, Raines peak seasons were higher - he had 6 6 WAR seasons and Morris only had 1. On the other hand, Raines also had 9 seasons of less than 2 WAR, to Morris' 4. In fact, for his career outside of that 5 year peak, Raines avg 2 WAR year.
Obviously there are issues comparing pitchers and outfielders but there's also a ton of problems relying on WAR anyway. Both players have narratives put forward by their supporters. Raines supporters claim his baserunning and defense were major under appreciated assets while ignoring that he was a very bad defensive player by dWAR and TZ. He had a weak arm and didn't run good routes.
I'm honestly not sure if either is a HOFer although I think the hall under represents the 80s by a ton so I'd be happy to have both in. I think Morris has become a lightning rod for stat heads to oppose. I wish more analysis was put into the value of durability. Now that Verlander is doing his thing, we're starting to hear about how CGs help rest the bullpen and gives the team a value that isn't currently being calculated. We have seen views changed on players after the stats were recalculated. Stat heads started to come around on Dawson when wOBA had him on par with HOFers such as Yount and his career win share (the 'in' stat at the time) was recalculated to be higher than Blyleven's. Recently, B-R readjusted WAR and added 11 WAR to Torii Hunter over a 9 year period. All of sudden, Hunter was no longer viewed as overrated.
There is no "maybe." Jack Morris is not a HOF pitcher! Get off it. He was great for the Twins and had a nice career, but he is not a HOF pitcher. He just wasn't good enough. I just don't get the infatuation with an above average pitcher.
Attachment 3042Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsmerf
That's because they aren't close. Mussina is however arguably the better pitcher than Tom Glavine.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuck
Glavine: ERA+ 118
Mussina: ERA+ 123
Glavine: WAR 69.3
Mussina: WAR 78.1
It's definitely arguable, Glavine has the two Cy Youngs (with two 2nd place finishes and two 3rd place finishes). Mussina never got one, and only finished in the top 3 once (he finished 2nd, and I don't know how that happened that year)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pius Jefferson
Additionally, although I'm not much of a wins equals greatness kind of guy, the voters will point to Glavine leading the league in wins 5 times. He also led the league in ERA+ once.
I'm a fan of Mussina...I hope he gets in..and I think he will. I'm pretty darn positive Glavine will.
All joking aside, I wonder if we appreciate just how great this retiring pitching group was. The top five guys - Clemens, Unit, Pedro, Maddux and Glavine averaged 300 wins and everyone won at least two Cy Youngs. After those five, Moose, Schilling and Smoltz should make the HOF and Brown, Moyer, Wells and Cone were all great pitchers. It was an amazing run.
I feel for Jack Morris and the supporters on his candidacy. He was a terrific player in his day and a crucial part of 2 World Series winners (not so much for his time in Toronto, where he was decent in the regular season in 1992, brutal in the playoffs which carried over for the remainder of his time in baseball). He pitched a TON of innings, started a TON of games and pitched well. He pitched in big games and was seen as an "ace". He had 2 fantastic World Series, not just the 1991 game 7. (Morris was great the entire 1984 & 1991 WS; people forget about the 2 complete games in '84)
So it's easy to see how he's got some passionate defenders. And Jack would hardly be the worst HoF pick, especially if you emphasize the "fame" aspect over sheer ability and achievement. And some of the "stat-head" crowd have been a little too sneeringly dismissive of Morris as a HoFer, which just gets his supporters to dig in harder against advanced stats and so forth.
But at the end of the day, Morris is a borderline candidate at best for me. He's the Top Dog in the Hall of Very Good. I simply don't buy into the argument that Morris "pitched to the score" to explain away the high ERA. And the ERA is just too high for me. The ERA+ of 105 just doesn't fly. I can't find a lot of secondary stats to support jack Morris that aren't tied to starts & innings pitched. Do you know what category Jack Morris led the league in the most times? Wild pitches. Did it 6 times, including his final, abbreviated season. Going beyond the stats, the best description of Jack Morris is "workhorse". From a subjective point of view, does that scream Hall of Fame? The peak just isn't high enough for me (top bWAR is 5.6, top ERA+ is 133 and after that age 24 season he never crossed a bWAR of 5 or ERA+ of 130 again), despite the longevity.
Morris does get extra points for some of his workhorse stats, and should get notice & credit. 10 seasons over 240 innings pitched. 11 seasons with 30+ starts. 11 seasons with 10+ complete games. Those are really really impressive numbers and a lot of teams would simply kill for a guy that could go out and pitch that many innings and keep you in a game.
Compared to a guy like Curt Schilling, it's hard to say Morris stacks up. The only category Morris wins is in durability. Schilling had a high peak, more great seasons, a far better ERA+, more K's, also had the great post-season heroics.
Mussina is a better comp, especially in style, right? Still hard to pick Morris over Mussina. The toughest beat against Mussina is he never lead his league is basically anything. But Mussina was a more effective pitcher than Morris. Higher peak, higher sustained effectiveness. Similar longevity. Morris wins on innings pitched, but 250 innings spread over 18 seasons just doesn't make up for the huge differences in ERA+ (123 for Mussina, 105 for Morris). Morris wins on post-season success, but I look at it for bonus points more than anything.
Schilling and Mussina are both Hall of Famers for me, I think, but both of them have some warts that keep them from being slam dunks like a Greg Maddox or Pedro Martinez. But both are easily above Jack Morris for me too.
I don't think Morris is going to make it, and that ok by me. I'm not going to rage if he gets in, either.
Whats annoying is there will be a lot of years in which we won't have a hall of famer. There is no reasoning behind a lot reasons why somebody doesn't get in. My idea of hall of famer was purely emotional and now it requires to much evidence. First year hall bias, Character crap, and sabermetrics kill the excitement.
There are a lot of factors that go into how a pitcher does. Does anyone here remember that Morris pitched his entire career in band boxes. The old Tiger statium was a left handed hitters dream, not also counting the Metrodome and the Blue Jays statium.
2. How do you think Maddox and Glavine would have faired in todays modern era where umpires are graded on their ball and strike calls. Both of those pitchers, because of their control, got a number of pitchs 2+ inches off the plate called strikes. Only one early strike like that can adjust a hitter mentallity of what they have to swing at. When you as a pitcher do not have to throw a true strike, you can become that much more a better pitcher. These guys were great at what they did, but you cannot convince me they were really great pitchers.
Morris had the same career ERA at home and on the road. Oh, and ERA+ accounts for a few different factors including ballparks. Career ERA+ is 105.Quote:
Originally Posted by beckmt
And if you don't think MaddUx was a great pitcher, I don't know what to tell you...
