Jason Frasor

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

May and Meyer (and Worley) fly in the face of such inane rhetoric. We've also signed Harden and Pelfry in exactly these kind of moves (that naysayers for years cry "why don't we take a chance on on somebody like Rich Harden! " Well, we just did). So what, the Twins didn't like Frasor; maybe they even had good reason.

My sense is that the Twins are looking for cheap ML innings to basically tread water until the next core group emerges in the majors. I think it's perfectly legitimate to bemoan that the Twins could do more to compete in 2013, but signing Frasor or Guthrie or Blanton or McCarthy or Feldman probably doesn't really make the Twins much more competitive (if at all) than the signings they've made. So it's hard for me to blame the Twins for not spending the money (even if it isnt mine, and they are under budget).

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Go ahead, continue your own rhetorical inanities in defending the status quo. You always conveniently miss the point about building for now- and for the future- as the critical component in running a successful and fanworthy franchise. You do get the fact that the odds that both May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50% and are still slated for rotation-impact in 2015, right? Not that these moves are a mistake, but the Twins need to be contemplating every potentially available talent as a cost-effective move at rebuilding their woeful franchise pitching depth. When considering the 2013/14 bullpen, is it that difficult to see that most of the projected SPs are coming off of injuries and need every bit of bullpen-bolstering possible? Beyond Perkins, Burton and Fien may suffer some regression, Duensing's role is uncertain and the rest are below replacement level.

Your sense about the Twins is right, in one sense, they ARE looking to be CHEAP instead of PENNY-WISE. Signing actual talent is vastly better stewardship of dollars than the Twins alternate solution (the one which you are obviously applauding with your "non-inane Rhetoric") of the Marquis-of-the-month or Maloney/Zumaya-flyer, coupled with proven mediocrity repeats like Burnett/Swarzack and mediocrity acquisitions.

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

It's threads like this that make this entire forum a disaster to read in the off-season.

The Twins have plenty of bullpen options????? for next year, including wonder boy Slama as well as guys like Harden who could slot in quite nicely into the bullpen. I would have liked a Frasor signing, but it's not worth blasting the org over, Jesus Christ.

I still kinda hope we can resign Capps to a one year/1 mil deal personally, he is frustrating, but I think he could be a nice 6th/7th inning guy next year for us.

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Yes, all is well with the organization according to the status quo fellas.

If I may translate "the message" of the Daves:

Invoke the higher power and admonish the other side to stop blasting them for not being more agressive in trying to improve their current trainwreck status, you louts who demand change, you guys are the "DISASTER", certainly not the Twins management and ownership!

Capps redux, yes Capps (sigh) . The Twins FO has demonstrated they have absolutely no confidence that Slama will ever be a long-term contributor as a Twin, and here's a guy that has demonstrated he can consistently do in the majors what Slama does in the minors and the Twins aren't willing to take a chance for a pittance over the minimum, wth a chance to flip, besides. Harden? Harden has 13 warm-up pitches and permanent retirement written all over him (Zumaya redux).

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Originally Posted by Rosterman

Bring Back Jon Rauch!

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After he was gone, I heard somewhere that Gardy and Rauch didn't get along so well. Probably stemming from the fact that Rauch was demoted from his job in favor of Proven Closer Matt Capps.\

Nobody's signed Cappy yet, by the way. There's your big BP addition.

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Originally Posted by jokin

Go head, continue your own rhetorical inanities in defending the status quo. You always conveniently miss the point about building for now- and for the future- as the critical component in running a successful and fanworthy franchise. You do get the fact that the odds that both May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50% and are still slated for rotation-impact in 2015, right? Not that these moves are a mistake, but the Twins need to be contemplating every potentially available talent as a cost-effective move at rebuilding their woeful franchise pitching depth. When considering the 2013/14 bullpen, is it that difficult to see that most of the projected SPs are coming off of injuries and need every bit of bullpen-bolstering possible? Beyond Perkins, Burton and Fien may suffer some regression, Duensing's role is uncertain and the rest are below replacement level.

Your sense about the Twins is right, in one sense, they ARE looking to be CHEAP instead of PENNY-WISE. Signing actual talent is vastly better stewardship of dollars than the Twins alternate solution (the one which you are obviously applauding with your "non-inane Rhetoric") of the Marquis-of-the-month or Maloney/Zumaya-flyer, coupled with proven mediocrity repeats like Burnett/Swarzack and mediocrity acquisitions.

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Wow, every response from you is like some kind of personal manifesto.

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Originally Posted by Boom Boom

After he was gone, I heard somewhere that Gardy and Rauch didn't get along so well. Probably stemming from the fact that Rauch was demoted from his job in favor of Proven Closer Matt Capps.\

Nobody's signed Cappy yet, by the way. There's your big BP addition.

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It was weird. In 2010, before they got Capps, we only lost ONE game in which Rauch was brought in for the save. In that game, he gave up one run and he didn't get the loss.

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Originally Posted by old nurse

While it would be nice to have someone who strikes out a batter once an inning or more, it is a disaster waiting to happen when he gives up on average 3 hits or walks every two innings.

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Except, Frasor's LOB% was over 80% in 2011 and nearly that high again in 2012. Only 2 guys on the Twins were anywhere close to that number. K's will help you do that, ie, keep those disasters waiting to happen to continue "waiting". Give me more Frasors over Swarzacks and Burnetts all day.

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Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

Wow, every response from you is like some kind of personal manifesto.

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Uhhh...."Thankyou"?

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Originally Posted by jokin

Except, Frasor's LOB% was over 80% in 2011 and nearly that high again in 2012. Only 2 guys on the Twins were anywhere close to that number. K's will help you do that, ie, keep those disasters waiting to happen to continue "waiting". Give me more Frasors over Swarzacks and Burnetts all day.

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More on base to be left there.
Wouldn't it be better to target higher skill level relievers than Frasor, Brunett, or Swarzak? Swarzak was used more as a long reliever/spot starter, so to compare him and Frasor is not right. The comparable pitcher to Frasor would be Fien. Fien was more effective than Frasor. Brunett would be more of a development player. Ryan Pressly is probably the competition for Brunett. I don't see it as a terribly exciting competition.

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Originally Posted by jokin

You do get the fact that the odds thatboth May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50%

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You can't just make up **** up and call it a fact. People will stop taking you seriously if they already haven't.

You really don't have any basis for your distinction between cheap and penny-wise--it's just your opinion.

And sure, Corriea is a status quo signing, so flame away, but to generalize that the Twins are maintaining the status quo when they just traded two of their CFers that were under team control for years for three legitimate, young pitchers is asinine. You seem ideological predisposed against the Twins.

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Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

You seem to be intentionally avoiding a very simple notion. It's always better to have more talent. No one is arguing these players magically make them a world series contender, but when you are between 20-30% under budget, some flyers aren't a bad idea. Even if they only marginally improve your team immediately, they represent possible trade value if handled properly and things go well. If the chips are truly in the hands of the next wave, why not add placeholders that also can be moved for further assistance for that next wave?

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Talent is great, but if the Twins feel they can get cheaper, better talent than say Frasor (or signed pitcher of the day) who am I to fault them? There's an implication here that the Twins aren't good at identifying inexpensive talent--when in recent history the Twins have consistently found effective bullpen parts on scrap heap.

Spending money doesn't necessarily equal bringing in more talent, and there's a threshold of diminishing returns that the Twins aren't going to pass, nor should they.

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

Evidently, 1.5 million was too expensive for everyone else too. These kind of threads are just vapid; do we really need to complain every time another team signs a player that the Twins might be able to use.

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Thank you.

People need to realize that free agents choose teams for MANY reasons, ONE of which is money.

It's not as simple as "gee, if the Twins had offered 1.6, he would have signed here."

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Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

Wow, every response from you is like some kind of personal manifesto.

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Heh. Now I'm picturing a Unabomber type.

jokin, are you writing this from you compound in Montana?

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

Evidently, 1.5 million was too expensive for everyone else too. These kind of threads are just vapid; do we really need to complain every time another team signs a player that the Twins might be able to use.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

You can't just make up **** up and call it a fact. People will stop taking you seriously if they already haven't.

You really don't have any basis for your distinction between cheap and penny-wise--it's just your opinion.

And sure, Corriea is a status quo signing, so flame away, but to generalize that the Twins are maintaining the status quo when they just traded two of their CFers that were under team control for years for three legitimate, young pitchers is asinine. You seem ideological predisposed against the Twins.

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You like Ryan are hoping for the best. If you look closer you will see Terry recieved 1 single A pitcher for an established c.f., what are the odds of any A player making it to the show, before you answer look at Mays in 2011 ,nice stats, but in AA Mays ERA is over 4.80
Looking at the lil Ben trade we recieved a 2 time sore armed back of the rotation starter and a guy who struggled in AA.
To me i dont see how Me. Ryan has safe guarded our limited resources , but in fact has gambled them ....for 3 magic beans

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Originally Posted by johnnydakota

You like Ryan are hoping for the best. If you look closer you will see Terry recieved 1 single A pitcher for an established c.f., what are the odds of any A player making it to the show, before you answer look at Mays in 2011 ,nice stats, but in AA Mays ERA is over 4.80
Looking at the lil Ben trade we recieved a 2 time sore armed back of the rotation starter and a guy who struggled in AA.
To me i dont see how Me. Ryan has safe guarded our limited resources , but in fact has gambled them ....for 3 magic beans

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There weren't enough free agents on the market to fix this team in one offseason. I'm not real happy about how things have played out, but if anything I don't think Ryan has gone far enough in trading away "limited resources".

Also, I think you're overrating Revere.

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

Talent is great, but if the Twins feel they can get cheaper, better talent than say Frasor (or signed pitcher of the day) who am I to fault them? There's an implication here that the Twins aren't good at identifying inexpensive talent--when in recent history the Twins have consistently found effective bullpen parts on scrap heap.

Spending money doesn't necessarily equal bringing in more talent, and there's a threshold of diminishing returns that the Twins aren't going to pass, nor should they.

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If this is November I don't disagree. But right now it could be argued Frasor would walk in our third best reliever. The contract he was signed to is incredibly affordable. There is zero question he is better than guys currently slotted to pitch significant innings. And all of this comes in the weeks after our FO has declared that they are pretty much done. With this much budget room left and clear upgrades still available (and in light of significant promises before the offseason) I think it is perfectly valuable to grumble when we see talent coming off the market that would add to this team.

Frankly, there is no defense of the FO when they set the expectations and then failed to live up to them. Again, I like what they've done for the most part, but that doesn't mean they are beyond criticism.

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Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

If this is November I don't disagree. But right now it could be argued Frasor would walk in our third best reliever. The contract he was signed to is incredibly affordable. There is zero question he is better than guys currently slotted to pitch significant innings. And all of this comes in the weeks after our FO has declared that they are pretty much done. With this much budget room left and clear upgrades still available (and in light of significant promises before the offseason) I think it is perfectly valuable to grumble when we see talent coming off the market that would add to this team.

Frankly, there is no defense of the FO when they set the expectations and then failed to live up to them. Again, I like what they've done for the most part, but that doesn't mean they are beyond criticism.

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I don't necessarily disagree, unless the Twins have other players in mind, or there's something they really don't like about Frasor. This is the season where the Twins tend to fill out their bullpen, so I'm still in wait and see model. But a deal like this might make the Twins feel sheepish later, I can agree with that.

FO has acquired four pitchers to compete for the rotation, even if all those players have warts...

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Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

I don't necessarily disagree, unless the Twins have other players in mind, or there's something they really don't like about Frasor.

FO has acquired four pitchers to compete for the rotation, even if all those players have warts...

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Hence why Frasor, a bullpen arm, is worthy to complain about a bit. They haven't even added a Burton this year to a pen that could also use some help. Given this team's lack of talent, a significant addition and a few more talented flyers is reasonable to expect. At this point one could seriously question the talent of those 4 pitchers relative to what was available and the budget space to add them.

I edited my post, with: "This is the season where the Twins tend to fill out their bullpen, so I'm still in wait and see model. But a deal like this might make the Twins feel sheepish later, I can agree with that" which I kind of addresses your most recent post.

It doesn't change that with this amount of budget space that they aren't willing to be a little more risk averse. They are playing it way too safely - from choosing Pelfrey over Baker, Correia/Blanton over Marcum/whomever, etc. They have the budget room to take more gambles and they said, pre-offseason, that they were going to be more aggressive. All people are doing is holding their feet the same fight the Twins lit themselves. I don't get the crusaders to defend the Twins from the very expectations they set out. That is 100% ridiculous.