Article: Correia Signing is a Sad Thing

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Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

Kevin Correia, Twins agree to terms - Bucs Dugout

What the one Pirates Blog is saying. In short, they (we, cause I'm a Pittsburger) don't get the money or the years -- the whole signing really.

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Interesting. I do like getting out of the Minnesota Bubble for some outside perspective on our moves. On the other hand, I'm not sure the Pirates should be throwing stones, since they handed (at least) $15 million to Jose Tabata before they realized he doesn't even belong in the majors right now.

I'm just not really sure what people expected to happen. If they were going to find someone to take only one year, it probably be in January or February after the market is REALLY picked over and the only guys left are even worse than Correia.

I mean, some people liked Joe Blanton. I really liked Brandon McCarthy, but if you follow him (or his wife) on Twitter, these people are human beings. Not only are they driven by the most years and most money they can get (which probably wouldn't be the Twins), but they might value playing for a team that isn't one of the worst in the MLB. Or they may have family/personal reasons for preferring one market over another (McCarthy's wife was an Arizona grad). So just because the numbers weren't that far off doesn't mean any particular team was actually "close" to signing some other guy you wanted.

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Originally Posted by chagen

We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

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Do you wish we had just traded Miguel Sano, Kyle Gibson, That Lefty LaVele Likes and the AFL surprise kid? Would that make you excited for James Shields?

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Originally Posted by CDog

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Originally Posted by chagen

We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

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How many starts do you suppose Shields will make for the Tigers this year?

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I think he was just making the point that the Tigers were willing to get Shields even though they have a pretty darn good rotation. Much like they spent $200 million+ on Prince to address a one-year need due to the loss of V-Mart, and required them to move Cabrera to 3B.

I assume he knows that Shields was ultimately traded to KC.

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

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Originally Posted by old nurse

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

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Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

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And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

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Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

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I was adding in another possible factor to his list...since it does seem MOST players go where they get paid the most.

To answer your statement, most of the teams willing to spend a good chunk on free agents aren't usually in last place...cause they get the talent. So even if it's never happened, it doesn't prove anything.

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Your assumption that the Twins have never made the best offer has no proof. Logic might be escaping you. Unless there is an overwhelmingly better offer and the team has drastically overpaid, or no one else wants you, why would you go to a losing small market, low media team? . There is nothing in the Twins offense or defense right now that would suggest to a pitcher that you are going to catch a break and thus have a poor record. Less money and a better record might net a bigger contract the next time. You so want to believe the Twins do not make competitive offers that it blinds you to all other possibilities. You also ignore the simple fact that playing on a losing team sucks so why would I want to go to a losing team? A big pile of money to hate life?

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Originally Posted by LoganJones

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Originally Posted by chagen

We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

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Do you wish we had just traded Miguel Sano, Kyle Gibson, That Lefty LaVele Likes and the AFL surprise kid? Would that make you excited for James Shields?

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The KC deal is atrocious. It's pretty clear that Twins fans view free agent money like Monopoly money, and don't want to hear excuses as to why we shouldn't buy our way out of giant holes every year. But I extremely happy that TR was willing to trade two major league CF's for some decent upside, as opposed to identifying a "surplus" in minor league outfielders and shipping off someone like Hicks or Arcia for a 30-year old starter.

Wil Myers may be twice as good as Sano will ever be. Who knows. To give him up in a deal like that just because they're bored with having blue chip prospects come up to the bigs and turn out to be more mediocre than expected (Gordon, Moustakas, Hosmer, etc.)...well, it's a joke.

That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

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Originally Posted by chagen

That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

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So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

Of course they are trying to acquire quality arms. The going rate for 1 Win pitchers is apparently 5 Mil a year. Dan Haren was a 1.8 Win pitcher last year and got 13 Million. I'm sure the Twins could have signed Correia (.9 win) to a 1 year deal for roughly 6.5-7 Million. He gave a per year discount in exchange for a little annual security. Plus: is this deal even official?

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Originally Posted by StormJH1

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Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio

Kevin Correia, Twins agree to terms - Bucs Dugout

What the one Pirates Blog is saying. In short, they (we, cause I'm a Pittsburger) don't get the money or the years -- the whole signing really.

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I'm just not really sure what people expected to happen. If they were going to find someone to take only one year, it probably be in January or February after the market is REALLY picked over and the only guys left are even worse than Correia.

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I doubt it, there are always stragglers that haven't been signed and latch on for a team friendly deal come February. Those pitchers are of the same caliber as Correia. These threads are going to resurface again in two months when other teams are signing the Randy Wolf's, Carl Pavano's and Mike Pelfry's for $1-$5 million on 1 year deals.

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Originally Posted by CDog

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Originally Posted by chagen

That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

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So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

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The Twins likely will make another move, though this one is a bad omen. If you believe La Velle E Neal, the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

OMG The Royals signed Sherrill, Wheeler, and Tavares. The Twins are doomed.

Look at it this way--- Kevin Correia's 162 game average would have made him SECOND in starts, wins, innings pitched and strikeouts on the 2012 Twins team.

Hopefully Ryan has more in store. I think Correia is (will be) better than Pavano, Liriano, or Blackburn. What did we pay those three last year? His signing probably signals those three are not coming back--- so be happy:)

It's just lucky TR tied him up before he signed in Japan.

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

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Originally Posted by CDog

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Originally Posted by chagen

That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

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So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

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The Twins likely will make another move, though this one is a bad omen. If you believe La Velle E Neal, the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

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Methinks you missed my point.

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Originally Posted by old nurse

OMG The Royals signed Sherrill, Wheeler, and Tavares. The Twins are doomed.

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Would you even want those three?? Sherrill and Wheeler are has beens and Tavares has been out of the majors for over two years. If Ryan signed any one of those three-- he would be crucified on this site.

I think you missed the sarcasm, Rick.

He's the NL Nick Blackburn

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

If you believe La Velle E Neal,

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Which I don't.

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

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Or the reporters aren't trying as hard / making up rumors. Seriously. It takes a special kind of myopia to honestly think the Twins didn't send their offers on to each and every one of the pitchers whose agent would take their calls. What's in it for the Twins to bust a bunch of dollars over what they see as fair value for any of these guys? A few less grumpy tweets and message board posts? They know what they value these guys at, and right now, these guys think they're worth more and plan on getting it. Most likely, the hang ups are not even about dollars/years. More like opt-outs, no trade clauses and option years. Just look at the ridiculous terms on Greinke's deal. In order to keep the no trade off the books he got an opt-out in case he gets all cy-youngy again and wants to grab even more dollars. But if he stinks? Dodgers won't be able to trade him and he'll be Barry Zitoing his way through all that cash.

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Originally Posted by CDog

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Originally Posted by nicksaviking

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Originally Posted by CDog

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Originally Posted by chagen

That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

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So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

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The Twins likely will make another move, though this one is a bad omen. If you believe La Velle E Neal, the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

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Methinks you missed my point.

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Did I? I highlighted the areas of my previous post that I thought addressed your point. If they are off base, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by old nurse

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

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Originally Posted by old nurse

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

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Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

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And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

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Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

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I was adding in another possible factor to his list...since it does seem MOST players go where they get paid the most.

To answer your statement, most of the teams willing to spend a good chunk on free agents aren't usually in last place...cause they get the talent. So even if it's never happened, it doesn't prove anything.

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Your assumption that the Twins have never made the best offer has no proof. Logic might be escaping you. Unless there is an overwhelmingly better offer and the team has drastically overpaid, or no one else wants you, why would you go to a losing small market, low media team? . There is nothing in the Twins offense or defense right now that would suggest to a pitcher that you are going to catch a break and thus have a poor record. Less money and a better record might net a bigger contract the next time. You so want to believe the Twins do not make competitive offers that it blinds you to all other possibilities. You also ignore the simple fact that playing on a losing team sucks so why would I want to go to a losing team? A big pile of money to hate life?

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No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to