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At this point, given 2013 is very likely a bust, I would prefer the obvious trade of Justin Morneau for another Meyer type prospect at A/AA level. The Twins could likely just go for a stop gap RF or even a LH platoon with Mastro. That stop gap, if decent enough (not looking up names at the moment), could also be traded for some low level medium prospect at the deadline and that would make room for Hicks and Arcia.
I don't like trading Willingham just yet. Next offseason would be ideal.
Yes, it's a balancing act. You can't (and shouldn't) let a player waste productive years in the minors just because it's not his "turn" yet - for one thing you'll find it much more difficult to sign your draftees in years to come. But, if they are not yet productive, i.e. they are brought up and allowed to "struggle", then that side of the argument starts to weigh less, and you have the converse problem of establishing a certain amount of complacency in the clubhouse because 'hey, they don't have someone they can replace me with anyway'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuck
That's a fair argument...one could also say nitpicking a player's game to death in the minors or staling him might take away confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ashburyjohnYou start the free-agency (and arbitration) clock a year, or maybe two, early. While the Twins don't necessarily have to view themselves as bottom feeders, they can't waste the high-talent/low-wage years that the CBA gives them. That, at least to me, is the answer to "why not". You can make the trades you outline, but decent talent for a two-year bridge needs to be found as replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuck
A GMs job is just hard. I keep coming back to that.
There was evidence presented that what we have seen thus far from Revere isn't necessarily a finished product. I just hated seeing a guy who has brought his own brand of positivity to 2 dreadful Twins seasons so ripped-upon by his own fan-base. The fact that there might be some other teams out there with interest confirms that I was at least on the right path.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDaveNobody is tearing him down. Pointing out that he has zero power, no arm and projects more as a 4th OF isn't tearing him down, it's just reality. Nobody will be more happy then me if he proves me wrong, I just don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverbrian
Right or wrong, and likely wrong, I imagine a lot of the issues people have with Revere probably stem from the team and our announcers drooling over him...basically forcing him down our throats constantly....severely exaggerating his play. Especially his rookie year. One could argue that with so little to be excited over, they had to focus on him, but still, the constant comparisons to Puckett got old. One of my favorites was the poll on which of 5 plays was his best, failing to mention that 3 of those were clearly due to him misplaying the ball off the bat to begin with causing him to make a great play instead of a mostly routine play. His defense got better this year, but he still lack in OB skills, he still lacks an arm...he needs to be much better to deserve the praise he gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokinThere was evidence presented that what we have seen thus far from Revere isn't necessarily a finished product. I just hated seeing a guy who has brought his own brand of positivity to 2 dreadful Twins seasons so ripped-upon by his own fan-base. The fact that there might be some other teams out there with interest confirms that I was at least on the right path.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDaveNobody is tearing him down. Pointing out that he has zero power, no arm and projects more as a 4th OF isn't tearing him down, it's just reality. Nobody will be more happy then me if he proves me wrong, I just don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverbrian
Point well taken, especially in these parts. Still, the 84-86 kiddie Twins as a model for future success isn't necessarily a bad one for the current GM to emulate. I think you could sell a group of exciting young players to the extended fan-base if they are honestly given the right expectations, not the hemming and hawing propaganda line from St Peter, St Antony and St Ryan. Even now, as Jim Crikket so aptly pointed out, they are using party line subterfuge, all the while going after the Marquis-Plus bargain bin starters to fill out the rotation. It would be refreshing if they would just admit that 2013's going to be a struggle and go from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ashburyjohnYes, it's a balancing act. You can't (and shouldn't) let a player waste productive years in the minors just because it's not his "turn" yet - for one thing you'll find it much more difficult to sign your draftees in years to come. But, if they are not yet productive, i.e. they are brought up and allowed to "struggle", then that side of the argument starts to weigh less, and you have the converse problem of establishing a certain amount of complacency is allowed in the players because 'hey, they don't have someone they can replace me with anyway'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuckThat's a fair argument...one could also say nitpicking a player's game to death in the minors or staling him might take away confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ashburyjohnYou start the free-agency (and arbitration) clock a year, or maybe two, early. While the Twins don't necessarily have to view themselves as bottom feeders, they can't waste the high-talent/low-wage years that the CBA gives them. That, at least to me, is the answer to "why not". You can make the trades you outline, but decent talent for a two-year bridge needs to be found as replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuck
A GMs job is just hard. I keep coming back to that.
He's likely never going to be close to Puckett, I think even DicknBert would admit to that. Not only did his defense improve this year, he improved at the plate (admittedly not a quantum leap, to be sure), his arm- or at least his approach at getting rid of the ball more quickly and efficiently- did show great improvement this year, did I read that he led the outfielders in assists? That he showed improvement with his given athletic skill set and off-season work habits, hopefully means he can make another jump at improving his categories of deficiency, which you accurately point out. As an example, Carlos Gomez was a far goofier, vastly more undisciplined player as a Twin. Look at Go-Go's progression from age 22 to age 27:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuckRight or wrong, and likely wrong, I imagine a lot of the issues people have with Revere probably stem from the team and our announcers drooling over him...basically forcing him down our throats constantly....severely exaggerating his play. Especially his rookie year. One could argue that with so little to be excited over, they had to focus on him, but still, the constant comparisons to Puckett got old. One of my favorites was the poll on which of 5 plays was his best, failing to mention that 3 of those were clearly due to him misplaying the ball off the bat to begin with causing him to make a great play instead of a mostly routine play. His defense got better this year, but he still lack in OB skills, he still lacks an arm...he needs to be much better to deserve the praise he gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokinThere was evidence presented that what we have seen thus far from Revere isn't necessarily a finished product. I just hated seeing a guy who has brought his own brand of positivity to 2 dreadful Twins seasons so ripped-upon by his own fan-base. The fact that there might be some other teams out there with interest confirms that I was at least on the right path.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDaveNobody is tearing him down. Pointing out that he has zero power, no arm and projects more as a 4th OF isn't tearing him down, it's just reality. Nobody will be more happy then me if he proves me wrong, I just don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverbrian
OPS #s: .592/.651/.623/.655/.679/.768 FWIW, Fangraphs valued him at $9M last year and $15.8M in 2012
Look at Revere ages 23 and 24: OPS .619/.675 And he is an immensely better baserunner than Go-Go- again, FWIW with a grain of salt from Fangraphs, they establish his value in 2011 was $9M and this year it was $15.2M. An optimist would say he's ahead of Gomez at the same point of his career. Who wouldn't be thrilled if he could consistently hit .725-.750 OPS and bring what he brings on the basepaths in the #9 slot in the batting order?
You mean did he lead OUR OF in assists? Yes. Two more than Span and Willingham. But heck, enough runners run on you, you're bound to throw a few out :-)
No doubt that the Twins pitching staff gave him more chances, just as every other OF had more chances to demonstrate their abilities, a hearty thankyou is in order to our pitchers for listening verrry closely to their coaches about the importance of pitching to contact. :talk028:
That's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted...l Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing for example, as opposed to charging a ball coming in, getting it, then throwing while in motion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
Yup, I saw what you saw, the good, agressive managers had a field day on advancng 1st-3rd. I attribute that mostly to the (proper) decision to keep Span in CF for showcase/future trading value purposes, that would be much less of an issue with Revere in CF or LF. Didn't Revere have a few tag-up put outs, so that going forward and releasing in one smooth motion showed improvement?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuckThat's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted as opposed to getting a running start before throwing. Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
yeah he did, and that was nice, but he also had quite a few times where the ball was hit to the OF, hopped a few times as he was charging it, and in his haste to make a throw, bobbled the ball. He's improving, but he'll always have a weak arm. Just like Pierre and Damon did through their careers. I'll never forget his rookie year where A.J. Pierzinski scored from 2B, standing up, on a ball hit to short CF as Revere fielded it, threw the ball, and six hopped the ball home.
His arm is weak... No doubt... But I seriously don't know what you guys saw... I watched the majority of games... There were times when the runner went first to third with Revere in RF... And in my opinion... Moments where they may not have attempted that on Francour... But let's not make it sound like it was a first to third party going on. It wasn't...Quote:
Originally Posted by jokinYup, I saw what you saw, the good, agressive managers had a field day on advancng 1st-3rd. I attribute that mostly to the (proper) decision to keep Span in CF for showcase/future trading value purposes, that would be much less of an issue with Revere in CF or LF. Didn't Revere have a few tag-up put outs, so that going forward and releasing in one smooth motion showed improvement?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuckThat's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted as opposed to getting a running start before throwing. Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
Its the type of statement you make when you know someone has a weak arm but they were not running wild and that is the impression you are leaving.
And let's be honest on the other side... He gets to the ball quicker and gets it in quicker... I don't care if a 4th grader is holding the ball in RF... If the ball is in his glove and the runner hasn't rounded second... He ain't going...
Serious embellishment going on here... His arm is weak... Got it... No argument... It will cost the Twins a run on occasion... No doubt... He doesn't have the Harper Hose...
The problem with these discussions as Puck pointed out. Is that it makes people draw lines in the sand... The pro Revere crowd like me end up losing our objectivity because we end up defending him... the anti or non Revere crowd end up disliking him more and yeah... I think they lose objectivity as well..
I don't want to shove Revere down anyone's throat... I shouldnt have to... hes done well... And Im trying to stop... But c'mon... He gave it and I assume he will continue to give it...
He was a first round draft pick and he was a 3rd round projection. No organization is going to reach into the 1st round unless he's knocking the ball around the park... And no team is going to reach for a pick unless they see something and think another squad saw something as well... That is why they reach... To get your guy... If Revere was showing no arm and No power he ain't going in the first round. Can we agree on that... I know some people think Terry Ryan and the front office are idiots... They are not that big of idiots... They are not taking a light hitting fast guy projected in the third round in the first... Jerrod Dyson went in the 50th round... That's where the fast guys who can't hit go... 50th round.
Was it a first round mistake? If you look back at 2007... There only a few of that class in the majors right now so I'd say no... With hindsight you could claim Frazier... d'Arnaud or Luebke may have been better choices in that slot... But with that same hindsight... 11 teams that drafted before the Twins did... they would be loving Revere instead of the guy they got.
You are also looking at a kid... 1st round pick who was not stalled in the minors for a second... Rookie... A... High A... AA... Majors... Advanced like clockwork...
He hasn't failed yet... At any level... including the majors... Whatever is thought to be wrong with him by some on this board... It didn't hold him back for a second cuz... here he is.
I,m not sure what measuring stick you are using... But a 1st round pick who advanced thru the farm with no stalling has to have value. So I'm pretty confident we have some undervaluing going on but it's clear that opinions are not going to change... So I'm really gonna try to stop now... But Like the Godfather III... Someone is gonna pull me back in.
If people talking him up is bugging you... Even if its embellished... Cheer for a different team please... Talking up White Sox players bugs me... I'm a Twins Fan and Revere is good baseball and he's a Twin... Talk him up all you want.
And I would not extend him at this time.
Dude yes the other teams were having a "field party" or whatever sending guys from 1st to third. His arm is terrible as far as baseball is concerned, it's actually borderline embarrassing watching at times how bad it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverbrian
That doesn't take away the fact that he has elite range and the ability to play a really strong CF, but to claim his arm isn't one of the worst of any OF in baseball is just flat out wrong. Luckily it will be masked a bit in CF, but still the weakness still remains.
I would be thrilled, but it isn't going to happen. Since he has zero power and thus no one will pitch around him, Revere would most likely need to hit around .330 on a regular basis in order to get even a 725 OPS, I just don't see it, unless he miraculously learns how to hit for even mediocre power/pop or someone learns to inciro the hell out of the ball for INF hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
Outlook: Unlikely
Never claimed that... Never said it was the worst... But I never claimed it wasnt... I actually started with the words... "His arm is weak... No doubt". Not sure how that read differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDaveDude yes the other teams were having a "field party" or whatever sending guys from 1st to third. His arm is terrible as far as baseball is concerned, it's actually borderline embarrassing watching at times how bad it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverbrian
That doesn't take away the fact that he has elite range and the ability to play a really strong CF, but to claim his arm isn't one of the worst of any OF in baseball is just flat out wrong. Luckily it will be masked a bit in CF, but still the weakness still remains.
I do claim that Runners were not having a field party. I saw bad throws... I did... His arm is not good... it will be the difference in a run or base on occasion... but it wasn't a field party or whatever... The impression being left is that hes personally responsible for all or most extra bases.
I've seen runners run on Francour. Runners go to third base based on where the ball is in relation to the fielder more often then they go on the guy holding the ball. If a runner goes from first to third... It is possible They were going with Parmelee, Span or Doumit in the same situation. Not all situations cuz his arm isn't that good... I get that.
Although, I don't refer to 24-year-olds as "kids" (imagine if the media referred to the pre-24 soldiers in our wars as "kids") I agree with Riverbrian. Some of you seem to want to just get rid of him, which is the opposite end of the spectrum from extending for no reason. Both are ridiculous.
By the way, the expectation of runners wildly taking advantage of Revere this year did fall short. He performed better than expected.
lol... At my age... There are lots of kids out there... Some of them kids are running Fortune 500 companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Wahl
One last thing...
Twins RF held percentage... 47.5%
League Average... 45.4
Can we at least agree that Ben played the majority of RF.
if not...
Ben Revere 51.5% held in RF and 41.4% in CF.
The on base percentage slugging or OPS argument or concern is at least legit.
RB, I don't know if you were responding to me specifically or not. I was actually on your side in the debate and my position was that it wouldn't be a fatal mistake to consider extending Revere, but a low-risk way to possibly keep a guy cheap and tradeable for a bit longer and avoid an arbitration upside surprise bump somewhere down the road. The vitriol that came out against Revere based on OP/ WilliHammer's suggestion surprised me a little and I just wanted to throw a little love the way of a kid who appears to care about his career and is an asset to the community. I previously boned up on his biography and saw what you saw. His professional numbers to this point are what they are and deserve scrutiny, I just thought for a guy who hasn't embarassed himself or the club in his first two years deserved a little more respect and benefit of the doubt that he still can improve his areas of deficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverbrianHis arm is weak... No doubt... But I seriously don't know what you guys saw... I watched the majority of games... There were times when the runner went first to third with Revere in RF... And in my opinion... Moments where they may not have attempted that on Francour... But let's not make it sound like it was a first to third party going on. It wasn't...Quote:
Originally Posted by jokinYup, I saw what you saw, the good, agressive managers had a field day on advancng 1st-3rd. I attribute that mostly to the (proper) decision to keep Span in CF for showcase/future trading value purposes, that would be much less of an issue with Revere in CF or LF. Didn't Revere have a few tag-up put outs, so that going forward and releasing in one smooth motion showed improvement?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePuckThat's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted as opposed to getting a running start before throwing. Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
Its the type of statement you make when you know someone has a weak arm but they were not running wild and that is the impression you are leaving.
And let's be honest on the other side... He gets to the ball quicker and gets it in quicker... I don't care if a 4th grader is holding the ball in RF... If the ball is in his glove and the runner hasn't rounded second... He ain't going...
Serious embellishment going on here... His arm is weak... Got it... No argument... It will cost the Twins a run on occasion... No doubt... He doesn't have the Harper Hose...
The problem with these discussions as Puck pointed out. Is that it makes people draw lines in the sand... The pro Revere crowd like me end up losing our objectivity because we end up defending him... the anti or non Revere crowd end up disliking him more and yeah... I think they lose objectivity as well..
I don't want to shove Revere down anyone's throat... I shouldnt have to... hes done well... And Im trying to stop... But c'mon... He gave it and I assume he will continue to give it...
He was a first round draft pick and he was a 3rd round projection. No organization is going to reach into the 1st round unless he's knocking the ball around the park... And no team is going to reach for a pick unless they see something and think another squad saw something as well... That is why they reach... To get your guy... If Revere was showing no arm and No power he ain't going in the first round. Can we agree on that... I know some people think Terry Ryan and the front office are idiots... They are not that big of idiots... They are not taking a light hitting fast guy projected in the third round in the first... Jerrod Dyson went in the 50th round... That's where the fast guys who can't hit go... 50th round.
Was it a first round mistake? If you look back at 2007... There only a few of that class in the majors right now so I'd say no... With hindsight you could claim Frazier... d'Arnaud or Luebke may have been better choices in that slot... But with that same hindsight... 11 teams that drafted before the Twins did... they would be loving Revere instead of the guy they got.
You are also looking at a kid... 1st round pick who was not stalled in the minors for a second... Rookie... A... High A... AA... Majors... Advanced like clockwork...
He hasn't failed yet... At any level... including the majors... Whatever is thought to be wrong with him by some on this board... It didn't hold him back for a second cuz... here he is.
I,m not sure what measuring stick you are using... But a 1st round pick who advanced thru the farm with no stalling has to have value. So I'm pretty confident we have some undervaluing going on but it's clear that opinions are not going to change... So I'm really gonna try to stop now... But Like the Godfather III... Someone is gonna pull me back in.
If people talking him up is bugging you... Even if its embellished... Cheer for a different team please... Talking up White Sox players bugs me... I'm a Twins Fan and Revere is good baseball and he's a Twin... Talk him up all you want.
And I would not extend him at this time.
Regarding his arm deficiencies, I watched nearly every game as well, and my perception is the agressive-running teams did take advantage of Revere in 2012 in RF. With that said, we agree that he made major strides in efficiency with balls in front of him or parallel in returning it to the infield. He may have even increased his arm strength some, too. He clearly wasn't guilty of frequently missing cut-off men or throwing rainbows home or to the wrong bases, I guess that makes him coachable, which further suggests he can improve in other areas, as well. Too many on this board consider him a finished product, despite evidence that players can and have improved their numbers significantly heading towards the age of 30.
Your numbers regarding his held runner efficiency is good evidence in support of your case, but I would defer to Puck to point out what I'm missing in answer to your case.
I like a guy who is easy to like and appears to want to be here, on this trainwreck of a team, for the love of the game. By the same token, when/if the time comes for him to go, I understand that it's a business. Is that so wrong?