AL Central - 2014/2015

2015? Really? So in response to 2 years of losing, we should willingly accept 2 more, then hope and pray that winning somehow materializes in year 3?

Sorry, that's too many steps down the slippery slope to Royals/Pirates perpetual rebuild mode for my taste.

And sticking with a young pitcher who consistently gets shelled for 2 seasons is no guarantee he'll turn into Frankie V. or Radke. Yes, many great players struggled early in their careers. But most struggling young players do not go on to greatness.

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

Leviathan, you make sense to me. Except, I think a lot of fans are fine with the notion of six-year contracts to decline-phase players, since they can "afford" to think only about now. Ryan isn't going to make this mistake, especially with pitching. Hell, the chances of one rotation member having a career-ender during the season is about 100%. Detroit's rotation is formidable today, but with injuries, it could be pedestrian by 2014.

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Which is fine, I don't think anyone is saying that we should completely tank next year but it's being interpreted that way. I think what most people mean is not to overcommitt assets with the view of competing in 2013.

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Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

Leviathan, you make sense to me. Except, I think a lot of fans are fine with the notion of six-year contracts to decline-phase players, since they can "afford" to think only about now. Ryan isn't going to make this mistake, especially with pitching. Hell, the chances of one rotation member having a career-ender during the season is about 100%. Detroit's rotation is formidable today, but with injuries, it could be pedestrian by 2014.

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Which is fine, I don't think anyone is saying that we should completely tank next year but it's being interpreted that way. I think what most people mean is not to overcommitt assets with the view of competing in 2013.

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This is exactly true. I feel like an acknowledgment that the Twins, if they follow the get-younger plan, will probably take some serious lumps is just common sense. It doesn't mean that anybody has said that they shouldn't care about 2013/14, or that they don't want to win in 2013/14, or that they're completely giving up on those seasons, etc. It's just being misinterpreted that way.

On the other hand, if it turns out that some of our top minor-league assets are ready to rip it up in the majors ala Mike Trout, then who's really advocating punting on the season?

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Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

2015? Really? So in response to 2 years of losing, we should willingly accept 2 more, then hope and pray that winning somehow materializes in year 3?

Sorry, that's too many steps down the slippery slope to Royals/Pirates perpetual rebuild mode for my taste.

And sticking with a young pitcher who consistently gets shelled for 2 seasons is no guarantee he'll turn into Frankie V. or Radke. Yes, many great players struggled early in their careers. But most struggling young players do not go on to greatness.

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Whenever the Twins decide to rebuild, it will take a few years of struggles with a young roster.

Signing decline phase players is an attempt to right the course is not rebuilding. The majority opinion on this site is that the Twins do not need to rebuild. They do not need to turn their decline phase assets into prospects not yet ready for the major leagues.

I advocate that they rebuild and would like to start the clock now.

The Twins have had three successful runs in Minnesota. All three had a foundation of very young rosters prior to the successful run.

It doesn't matter what the twins do. They have an idiot for a gm, and their scouts are wose than pee wee league players. All of the small market teams that either make the playoffs or come very close to making them every year, all have two things in common. A great general manger, and a superb scouting dept. Until we get them, I don't think I need to elaborate

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Originally Posted by trader t

It doesn't matter what the twins do. They have an idiot for a gm, and their scouts are wose than pee wee league players. All of the small market teams that either make the playoffs or come very close to making them every year, all have two things in common. A great general manger, and a superb scouting dept. Until we get them, I don't think I need to elaborate

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I try to not comment to most of these statements, however, this is just plain disrespectful to a man who has dedicated his life to the Minnesota Twins organization. I for one believe you owe Mr. Ryan an apology.

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Originally Posted by trader t

It doesn't matter what the twins do. They have an idiot for a gm, and their scouts are wose than pee wee league players. All of the small market teams that either make the playoffs or come very close to making them every year, all have two things in common. A great general manger, and a superb scouting dept. Until we get them, I don't think I need to elaborate

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Very insightful, allow me to elaborate on your post, http://www.websmileys.com/sm/obscene/eck15.gif

trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

Pitchers in the farm system who might possibly contribute to the rotation over the next two-three years: Kyle Gibson, Liam Hendriks, Alex Wimmers, Adrian Salcedo, BJ Hermsen, Pedro Hernandez, Logan Darnell, Madison Boer, Tom Stuiffbergen, Manuel Soliman, and the 2013 1st round pick, the 4th pick in the draft.

mike wants wins, we've had this discussion before. While you might say that none of these guys will likely be "really good", I'll say that it's likely that a few of them will be #2,#3,#4, and #5 starters. My bets are on Gibson (#2), Hendriks (#3), Wimmers (#3),Hermsen(#5), and this year's pick (#2). Now that's a far cry from YOUR statement that they have NO relly good pitching help coming up in the next 2-3 years.

So help me understand why this isn't an adequate explanation for why some of us are much more hopeful about the pitching pipeline.

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

Pitchers in the farm system who might possibly contribute to the rotation over the next two-three years: Kyle Gibson, Liam Hendriks, Alex Wimmers, Adrian Salcedo, BJ Hermsen, Pedro Hernandez, Logan Darnell, Madison Boer, Tom Stuiffbergen, Manuel Soliman, and the 2013 1st round pick, the 4th pick in the draft.

mike wants wins, we've had this discussion before. While you might say that none of these guys will likely be "really good", I'll say that it's likely that a few of them will be #2,#3,#4, and #5 starters. My bets are on Gibson (#2), Hendriks (#3), Wimmers (#3),Hermsen(#5), and this year's pick (#2). Now that's a far cry from YOUR statement that they have NO relly good pitching help coming up in the next 2-3 years.

So help me understand why this isn't an adequate explanation for why some of us are much more hopeful about the pitching pipeline.

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I'm hopeful of help in the next few years but outside of Gibson and Berrios (a longshot to even include on this list), the Twins' pitching prospects are not good in the short term. Could that change next season as one of the college arms taken in the past few drafts has a strong season and/or Wimmers comes back strong? Certainly. But it's a longshot and far from a sure thing. The Twins are not likely to field a competitive rotation from within the system in the next 3-4 years. There's no indication that will happen. You can hope but that hope isn't grounded in reality.

If the Twins assemble a pitching staff, it's going to be through one of three avenues:

1. Money. Free agents. Lots of 'em.
2. Shrewd trading by Ryan.
3. Dumb luck. Picking a few guys off the heap and getting ridiculously lucky with them.

One of those things can't be counted on. The other is unlikely given the Twins' history with free agents. Basically, the Twins need to get a fantastic return on one or all of Morneau, Willingham, and Span. That is the only way they're going to get a top of the rotation guy in the short term.

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

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I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

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Originally Posted by trader t

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

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I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

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You suck at life.

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Originally Posted by trader t

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

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I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

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Doumit, WIllingham, Burton, and Carroll were all relitivly successful signings. Marquis and Zumaya were not. That seems to be a positive success ratio. Pitching staff takes longer to fix. Trader t must realize that not everything works out well. At least TR has a successful track record, look no further than Kansas City if you want a failure. That is what not having a plan does. I have seem on other websites the fact that most of Kansas Cities good hitters are on the trading block. Looking for pitching no doubt. Pitching is sometimes luck or a great scouting department that does not miss(Tampa Bay). Twins are better than most in scouting. Give it some time. Problem with people like trader t is that they alway think the job is easy and they can do it. Almost all of them cannot.

Brock, I agree with you 100% that for 2013, we need a trade for a #2-3 starter, which means bye bye to Morneau and/or Span most likely: we need a surprise FA signing of a Marcum-type, and we need a trash heap sucess story or a Deduno shocker to go with Gibson, Diamond, and Hendriks.

My post about the farm system was in response to the frequent comments that the system has absolutely NO pitching help available in the next 2-3 years. It's true that the system is very thin in high ceiling pitching prospects above low A. But at the lower levels, people are going to be very pleasantly surprised by two years from now at the promise of a number of pitching prospects.

My argument has been that we can fix the current shortcomings enough to compete almost immediately via outside additions, and then rely on a wave of talent, pitching included, from the farm system in 2-3 years and beyond.

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Originally Posted by trader t

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

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I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

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Trader T, I am waiting for your apology to Mr. Ryan. He has earned our respect. Whether or not we agree with every move he makes, your comment about him was unrespectful and in poor taste. Step up and do the right thing!

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Originally Posted by trader t

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Originally Posted by birdwatcher

trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

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I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

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The worst Generation is something I've been hearing. I'm not sure what to think when I hear "Worst Generation" because I am part of it. As a Generation X'er.. i am right in the middle of it.

Is the worst Generation... the Baby Boomer? X? Y? Right now we all go hand in hand.

There are individuals that I know who can make me shrug the comment off and say nothing wrong with this generation Y or X at all. Im an optimist.. I believe in people.

Just when I feel all optimistic about our Generation...

The Twin Towers come down and instead of bringing us together it actually divides us as the majority of our attention is turned toward a different part of the world with more oil.

We live through a time where everyone is entitled to a house I guess and everyone gets a house I guess. Not only does everyone get a house but with sheer greed added to it all... Profit was made on those sub prime mortgages down the line as Investment Agencies not only sold that debt to buyers two three times over... They also paid credit rating agencies to take the sub out of sub prime and the credit rating agencies did the deed and took the money. These Investment Agencies whose greed brought the world to the Financial edge... where it still sits today... were punished severely by being forced to take billions of our tax dollars. Our politicians are just as guilty in the financial mess because they live in the pocket of the investment banks. Our Politicians are severely punished by the incumbent re-election rate dropping from 94 to 85 percent.

While deciding what to do about it... Very few decisions are made because it appears that all Parties have put Party in front of Country and the filibuster has increased from rare to common. You don't even have to stand for hours and hours anymore reading a phone book from cover to cover. The entitled Generation is entitled to an easy and even less effective filibuster!!! Filibuster reform will just be filibustered.

Meanwhile... The guitar solo is gone from music and reality TV is making those Neilson Boxes ring and I'm complaining because my cell phone isn't downloading fast enough.

I start to pull myself out of this negative "kids these days" "worst generation" thinking. All Generations have problems... Brokaws Greatest Generation was born out of necessity because things got really bad with a depression and Hitler. Maybe Generation Y will be a great generation out of Necessity as well... Maybe Generation X... because things are getting bad again. You won't know until Generation Y gets a turn at power and a chance to lead.

Yeah.. That's right... I'm optimistic again... We've been in a hole before... We can get out of holes again...

Then I read the post from trader t... WE ARE the WORST GENERATION!!!

Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the success of Mr. P.T. Barnum jr. Where did I say that the gm's job was easy and that I could do it? It's not easy at all and I wouldn't want it. The twins are not just in competition with other teams in the cent. div. It's the whole al. And when small market teams have to butt heads with the money teams, they need to have a little luck, but more importantly they need the best gm money can buy. I really cannot understand your argument. Pitching and defense wins championships!!!! The twins pitching and defense speak for themselves, which falls on the head of guess who.

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Originally Posted by trader t

I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the success of Mr. P.T. Barnum jr. Where did I say that the gm's job was easy and that I could do it? It's not easy at all and I wouldn't want it. The twins are not just in competition with other teams in the cent. div. It's the whole al. And when small market teams have to butt heads with the money teams, they need to have a little luck, but more importantly they need the best gm money can buy. I really cannot understand your argument. Pitching and defense wins championships!!!! The twins pitching and defense speak for themselves, which falls on the head of guess who.

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Where is your apology for what you called Mr. Ryan?

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Originally Posted by trader t

I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the success of Mr. P.T. Barnum jr. Where did I say that the gm's job was easy and that I could do it? It's not easy at all and I wouldn't want it. The twins are not just in competition with other teams in the cent. div. It's the whole al. And when small market teams have to butt heads with the money teams, they need to have a little luck, but more importantly they need the best gm money can buy. I really cannot understand your argument. Pitching and defense wins championships!!!! The twins pitching and defense speak for themselves, which falls on the head of guess who.

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Joe Mauer?