Thread: The "Firings" that were not.

Originally Posted by AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

There is so many conflicting reports about whats happening with this situation!

Here.


That is what will happen

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.

I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.

---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll make a good Twins coach today.

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.

I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.

---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll be a good coach today.

So are you for or against hiring outside the organization? How about bringing in some new blood with a proven successful track record that might have a different approach to the "same old, same old" "Twins Way"?

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.

I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.

---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll be a good coach today.

Re: Gladden:
there is an often skipped fact:
Gladden was a below average player. His career slashline is: .270/.324/.382 once he stole 32 bases (but was caught 15 times). Great 1987 post-season, sucked in 1991 post-season

So when he is on his high horse about Ben Revere...

Am I correct that the 2 they fired were a 64-year-old white man and a 60-year old African-American while the gentlemen they retained (even if reassigned) were all white and younger than 60?

A call to the EEOC is probably in order.

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

Am I correct that the 2 they fired were a 64-year-old white man and a 60-year old African-American while the gentlemen they retained (even if reassigned) were all white and younger than 60?

A call to the EEOC is probably in order.

well... Liddle was a 50 some white man too

as far as the call goes, 40+ is the protected age group legally. So the ones who stayed are in the same age group as the ones "whose contracts were not renewed"

More information here.

No, that's the info we already know.

What the Twins' did yesterday, was not "mishandling" it was "misleading". And I do suspect that other things came up. (like maybe the manager of the millennium threatening to quit if all of his buddies were not back and/or if Molitor was considered).

Look, you admit you are guessing. You don't know what happened and what people were told and for what reasons.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Think about that for a second and then think about integrity.

This is both patronizing and absurd. Whiter integrity, indeed? You're framing the situation in your preferred narrative before you necessarily know the details, and then you're stridently thumping your chest about it. Ugh.

I understand that the ones retained weren't all that much younger.

I just think that the picking and choosing that they did was interesting.

And no matter what, Liddle chose to announce in advance that he was retiring so technically the non-renewal of his contract was his choice.

Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

More information here.

No, that's the info we already know.

What the Twins' did yesterday, was not "mishandling" it was "misleading". And I do suspect that other things came up. (like maybe the manager of the millennium threatening to quit if all of his buddies were not back and/or if Molitor was considered).

Look, you admit you are guessing. You don't know what happened and what people were told and for what reasons.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Think about that for a second and then think about integrity.

This is both patronizing and absurd. Whiter integrity, indeed? You're framing the situation in your preferred narrative before you necessarily know the details, and then you're stridently thumping your chest about it. Ugh.

Hold it.

Yesterday. Scottie and Vavry were "fired". Today they resurfaced as 1st and 3rd base coaches. This is a FACT
What happened yesterday was misleading
and this speaks tons about Ryan's integrity
(to make myself clear).

My understanding is that Molitor didn't like being a coach when he was with Seattle because of the time living there and being on the road. He took a job as a roving instructor because he could be home more and just drop in on other towns. Now that his family has aged, he is more available to the day-to-day travel grind of baseball. Or so I seem to remember.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

One interesting thing about this. Can someone clarify for me. Does this mean that the Twins are increasing their ML staff? Wasn't infield/outfield instruction previously handled by coaches?

No and Yes.

IF/OF instruction was informal. Jerry White was the OF coach.

So here are your "new" Twins' coaches:

Gardy: manager
Andy: Pitching
Scottie: Outfield/3B(or 1B)
Vavry: Infield/1B (or 3B)

and 3 openings:

Glynn: Bench
Bruno: Hitting
Cuellar: Bullpen

Awww - . . . and NOT the Dazzle Man?

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Scottie and Vavry were "fired". Today they resurfaced as 1st and 3rd base coaches. This is a FACT
What happened yesterday was misleading
and this speaks tons about Ryan's integrity
(to make myself clear).

You're overreacting, turbo.
From the PP:

Hitting coach Joe Vavra and bench coach Scott Ullger will stay with the Twins but with new job assignments. Vavra will become the team's infield coach, while Ullger will become the outfield coach. Ryan said both are likely to take on added responsibilities that could involve coaching first or third base. Gardenhire would make those decisions.

Well, this argument is about semantics apparently.

It is pretty clear from that quote that Vavra and Ullger have merely been reassigned (new positions created) but it is also clear thtat they WERE NOT FIRED or NON-RENEWED.

And we all remember seeing how good Ullger was as the 3B coach a couple of years ago (heaven help us).

But yep, this was pretty much a public relations ploy and nothing else.

Leaves me with very little respect for this organization or those who run it.

Did anyone really expect different? It starts with the top and there needs to be some new blood.

This whole fiasco has been mishandled.

Some said Gardy threatened to quit if Anderson was canned which should have happened--the Twins have the worst pitching...I wonder also if he threatened to walk (go to Cleveland) if Vavra was gone (he has done a good job. I also wonder if Mauer and Morneau spoke up for Vavra...

This is a mess...I also think press premature running of rumors makes it look worse than it is...of course the press does that routinely.

The worst thing about this is the impact on the offseason restocking of the roster. Any chance a decent pitcher would come here as a free agent is gone--he knows that Andy and Gardy are lame ducks. Morneau's slight trade value (14 million contract, one concussion from forced retirement) has dropped cause he is unhappy. Just a mess.

Originally Posted by jokin

So are you for or against hiring outside the organization? How about bringing in some new blood with a proven successful track record that might have a different approach to the "same old, same old" "Twins Way"?

---Totally for, I'm with you 100% on this. My preference would have been a total housecleaning and new faces brought in from outside. (I probably wasn't clear, but when I pointed to those guys you mentioned not being former Twins, I meant that as a good thing.)

Originally Posted by thrylos98

No and Yes.

IF/OF instruction was informal. Jerry White was the OF coach.

So here are your "new" Twins' coaches:

Gardy: manager
Andy: Pitching
Scottie: Outfield/3B(or 1B)
Vavry: Infield/1B (or 3B)

and 3 openings:

Glynn: Bench
Bruno: Hitting
Cuellar: Bullpen

I believe you are incorrect - check the Twins web site. Major league coaches are Gardy and Anderson. Ullger and Vavra are listed as Minor league OF Coordinator and IF Coordinator, not as major league coaches. I think we are getting new bodies in the BP, 1B Coach, 3B Coach, Bench, and Hitting. Six coaches and a manager is the limit until September, just like a 25 man limit on the roster until September. Other duties will be assigned (i.e. OF / IF coaching).

Originally Posted by thrylos98

[

Hold it.

Yesterday. Scottie and Vavry were "fired". Today they resurfaced as 1st and 3rd base coaches. This is a FACT
What happened yesterday was misleading
and this speaks tons about Ryan's integrity
(to make myself clear).

Speaks to to Ryan's integrity... huh. I would say it speaks the quality of reporting yesterday. I don't remember Ryan giving any quotes about who was fired and who wasn't before the press conference. Not that it matters, it sounds like the Polands have Ryans back even if there is another 6 seasons of below 500 ball. Gardy and Andy have been give a year to turn it around. I agree with thrylos, it looks like Scottie and Vavry are on the corners, the Twins must be convinced they have futures, if not with us, then elsewhere. Given Scotties dislike for 3rd base, I see him as our 1st base coach. If Grady is let go next year his replacement will either be Molitor, Glynn, or Ullger. My votes for Gene Glynn.

I guess I saw that Vavra and Ullger were reassigned from the get-go. The Twins are going to have a new hitting coach and a new bullpen coach. I don't know if anyone is guaranteed a job (Brunansky, Cuellar, and Glynn). In the coaching staff, they need to get younger, add at least one Hispanic coach and maybe someone that changes the atmosphere a little.

I don't think the coaches should be scapegoats, but making changes after losing 195 games in two years should happen. The dynamics of the staff changes aren't available to us. I don't want to speculate and I don't think it is fair to do so.