Thread: Article: Bloodbath

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

Originally Posted by J-Dog Dungan

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

He won't be traded. Ryan will want one more shot at fixing the rotation and a middle line up or Mauer, Willingham and Morneau is a nice one. If the rotation breaks down, Morneau will be moved at the deadline where his salary won't be as big an issue.

Originally Posted by J-Dog Dungan

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

There is no doubt Morneau is gone--he has basically said he wont re-sign now.

I wonder if Gardy walks away. If I was him, I would. Take away my coaching staff (except for Anderson) and give me guys I may or may not want with a no pitching--you are basically telling me I am a lame duck--maybe I should walk away now.

Why not keep the bullpen coach who has been here forever?? Twins better give him some honor next year.

This was done poorly and handled worse.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?

A while ago I wrote a short blog about how when TR took over as again, one of the things he mentioned was evaluating every part of the organization, including the medical staff, and I questioned if they would also be awarded a "scholorship" looks like they have not. It also looks like everyone on the coaching staff has been put on notice with all the 1 year deals that expire after next year. I guess TR is trying to light a fire under someones ass?

Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans

I wonder if Gardy walks away. If I was him, I would. Take away my coaching staff (except for Anderson) and give me guys I may or may not want with a no pitching--you are basically telling me I am a lame duck--maybe I should walk away now.

Why not keep the bullpen coach who has been here forever?? Twins better give him some honor next year.

This was done poorly and handled worse.

I agree that the execution of all of this was egregious.

As for Gardenhire, I've wanted to see him gone because I thought it was time for a change. I think he could be successful somewhere else. It looks like there will be a number of vacancies this off-season. It may very well be in his best interest to resign. (I would not see that as being a "quitter" although some might. From the things he's said, he'd probably like to stay and win with the Twins but the talent he has to work with is pretty much outside his control.)

It would be great to get rid of Morneau and his 15 million. Morneau was average at best this season for a 1B/DH. I think his WAR was around 1. He's garbage if they could get that 15 million off the books for a used lawnmower in return that would be great. Not sure why they fired poor Jerry White. What does a 1st Base Coach do besides give tips on the pitcher and relay signs? He got smoked.

Originally Posted by gunnarthor

Just looked up a few but managers that have had back to back 90+ loses that weren't fired included Kelly, Torre, Mauch, Cox, Mack, Maddon, Pinella, Trembley, Hargrove, Torborg, Trammel, Houck, McNamara, etc

Take Joe Moddon off the list. He acquired a 95+ loss mess.
Maddon's Ray's had 97 wins in just year three.

My theory is that the Twins still want Gardy as the manager, but that he threatened to walk if they let Andy go.

Right or wrong, the biggest internal values in this organization are loyalty and continuity. Remember that TR and Gardy know how the system works in Minnesota and are willing to work within the confines of what the Pohlads lay down. All you pretty much hear about Gardy, both locally and nationally, is that he is a good manager and the guys love playing for him. Tons of respect everywhere. I still believe that if Gardy leaves, it will be because he wants to, not because he was let go, regardless of what willbe said publicly.

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

The Vavra move was surprising in that the team has seen a lot of individual improvement under his watch (I would contend that poor players are more to blame than Vavra).

Also, if you think you are going to see "major cultural changes", think again. They are filling all of these spots from within, not one will be an external hire. If Gardy does ultimately leave the team, do you really think his replacement will be external.

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

.500 would have been a lofty goal with the rotation set up as it was originally.

Liriano, Blackburn, and Marquis DID stay healthy. Baker and Pavano... do you think that, combined, they were worth 15 more wins than the replacements? I don't.

Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

You are wrong. The Twins and Gardy have almost always agreed to 2 year extensions when he had 1 year remaining on his contract

Originally Posted by SweetOne69

Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

You are wrong. The Twins and Gardy have almost always agreed to 2 year extensions when he had 1 year remaining on his contract

But they tore up his existing contract in the process correct? Meaning that he was always working on a 2 year contract. I do believe it was always done around the winter meetings. If goes into the season with a one year contract, and no talk of an extension, then I will believe the lame duck status. Otherwise no.

Originally Posted by Boom Boom

Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

.500 would have been a lofty goal with the rotation set up as it was originally.

Liriano, Blackburn, and Marquis DID stay healthy. Baker and Pavano... do you think that, combined, they were worth 15 more wins than the replacements? I don't.

Baker and Pavano healthy, Marquis being there for Spring Training, Blackburn and Liriano would not have been given as long a leash as they were, less starts from Duensing and Hendricks. That combination could have added up to close to 15 additional wins, yes.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?

This is obviously an important first step in addressing the critics of the medical staff for the Twins but it is not the last step. Here are the things I will be looking for to see if this turns into something I would look on as a positive change:

1. Trainer is filled from outside this organization. A fresh way of doing things is a must.
2. Trainer is interviewed by a beat reporter and addresses in some way the issues that have frustrated fans and what they look to either do about it or how the fans have misconceptions about those issues.
3. We have surgeries this November and December on this team instead of Spring Training.

The one I am most interested in above is someone from outside this org and that applies to all the coaching spots. If this turns into a migration of folks from Rochester to Minneapolis then these firings are pointless. If we take select guys from Rochester and fill this trainer spot and one or two other coaching positions with fresh voices then this has a chance to matter somewhat.

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by sbknudson

I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

And who was the GM then?

Originally Posted by J-Dog Dungan

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

Morneau should have been traded in the deadline... $14 million is way too much for his production. Willingham is making half as much and Parmelee can fit in. That $14 million would (and I hope will) go a long way toward fixing the rotation

And if Morneau does not like the fact that Vavry was reassigned, he can follow him in his new team, if there will be one. He is a free agent after next season.

From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

Originally Posted by PseudoSABR

From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by sbknudson

I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

And who was the GM then?

You and your common threads. Stop with your whining facts!

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.