09-16-2012, 11:15 PM #21
Also with regard to Drew, I had him in my fantasy league in 2007, 2009, and 2011. So, I can't be trusted with any assessment of his value for the Twins . . .
09-16-2012, 11:19 PM #22
Right now I don't care what his UZR is. I'm not counting his errors either. Florimon has made some plays that good shortstops make so I'm willing to watch him. He's hit the ball at times as well and chased badly at other times. I'm ok with letting him see a little more of Verlander, Weaver and JA Happ.
Stephen Drew is a mess... How he gets on the list... I don't know... Ian Desmond hit like crap the two years prior before hitting Ok this year.
Simmons hasn't proven to be anybody yet and he certainly didn't play enough to pull the Braves into the playoffs. Furcal had some amazing years and a bunch of Mendoza years... Hardy hits for Power... He's the Adam Dunn of Shortstops. Peralta... Is Hardy like with less power. If this is a hitting SS list... The only conclusion that can be drawn is that SS's are pretty weak at the plate.
However... When making a point like you are making about hitting Shortstops being the lifeblood of winning baseball teams... You also have to go to the other side. Tulo hits the snot out of the ball and the Rockies are in last place. Rutledge has been hitting very well in his absence. The Rockies ain't dancing. Aviles hits pretty well for a SS... The Red Sox aint dancing... Escobar has been fantastic for the Royals... Royals ain't making the playoffs this year. What about that Asdrubal guy in Northern Ohio. Jose Reyes in Miami... Damn fine hitter... Rollins in Philly... That Castro kid playing on the North Side of Chicago... Oh my God he is as good as they come at the plate. Now Lowrie has been hurt a bit but he's got a decent stroke for Houston. His Average needs to come up but he can find the Crawford Boxes.
We may have to take a show of Twins Daily hands... But I'm willing to say that my list of Hitting Shortstops on the losing teams is stronger than your list of hitting Shortstops on Winning teams.
We need PITCHING!!! And when it comes to placing that pitching on the mound... It will be quite helpful to that pitching if we had a SS who can catch and throw AND... Make a couple of plays that they are not supposed to make. I'd love to have a prospect like Profar and I'd love to have a guy like Tulo... We don't have that guy so I'll settle for someone who gets dirty. Stephen Drew is not that guy.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 09-16-2012 at 11:23 PM.
09-16-2012, 11:41 PM #23
This shows that good teams have good shortstops & also bad teams have good shortstops (didnt say great)......MN has never even had a league average shortstop for almost a decade (since Guzzie left & that's the HIGH point of SS's the past 2 decades).
Florimon is 26 already & has never even put up a solid minor league season. The Twins are playing him out of desparation OR are they trying to prove the scout who recommended him to MN correct ( is he the Gray/Nishi/Butera/etc scout??).
Regardless of whether people like defensive metrics.....they arent skewed to go against Pedro only. His numbers are attrocious after his first 25 or so games.
09-17-2012, 12:52 AM #24
09-17-2012, 01:15 AM #25
If Texas is ready to play Profar next year then they have a reasonably priced SS for the next 3 years who they can trade (Andrus). The Twins could be a good fit in 1 of 2 trade scenarios. 1. If the Rangers lose Hamilton this offseason they could trade Andrus for something like Span or Revere to take over CF and Andrus leadoff spot and the Twins could throw in Burton or a prospect to balance out the trade. (Hermann or Doumit could be a fit since Napoli is a FA. but I bet he resigns with Texas) Or since Cruz is a fa after next season we could trade Arcia or Hicks instead of Span for Andrus. There are several win/ win scenarios here and it should be looked into if Texas is open to moving one of those SS.
09-17-2012, 01:16 AM #26
Personally... I'm not comfortable with defensive metrics but Ok... Whatever they say... I imagine it says something... But... It's 25 games... That may be the more important metric in my opinion. Especially when considering defensive metrics. 25 games does not present reliable.
League Average SS... Yeah we could improve that position... No one would complain if we did... SS can be put on the list of needs and rightfully so.
I just don't buy the premise that a hitting SS correlates to a top two finish and Florimon has at least shown me some wizardry on defense. A defensive stud at the position will be more important to a building pitching staff than a SS less defensive with a higher OPS unless that OPS is really high and Tulo ain't coming to town.
25 games is too soon pronounce him dead defensively based on UZR or errors for that matter.
09-17-2012, 01:27 AM #27
09-17-2012, 08:42 AM #28
But when you list the good-hitting shortstops on the good teams, and then go on to list all the good-hitting shortstops on the bad teams, too... it makes me think that going with a Florimon at that position is putting the team at a disadvantage.
09-17-2012, 09:02 AM #29
A Plouffe-Florimon-Carrol-Dozier 2B-SS-3B infield is pretty mediocre defensively and not much to brag about offensively. Twins either have a weakness drafting talent or in developing and instructing defense in these positions.
09-17-2012, 09:17 AM #30
09-17-2012, 09:59 AM #31
I don't know if Florimon is the guy... I won't claim it... Let's see what he does... He has moments where he looks like a defensive wizard and that encourages me but not enough to say case closed.
My thoughts on the SS position for 2013 in the context of the current Twins... We need pitching and when putting arms out there and buidling our staff... We need to support that position and give it every chance to succeed and that means defense. Defense can stop the big inning from happening... Suspect Defense can prolong innings and cause big crooked numbers.
ERA is effected by those occasional big innings more than anything else. A SS that can get to balls that others can't is a huge factor because they stop those big innings from happening. It's all about making outs.
You saw what happened yesterday on the Florimon boot. 6 Runs in one inning for the White Sox. Yes I know it's odd that I would use a Florimon misplay in defense of Florimon defense.
Off all the SS's I have seen this year for the Twins... Florimon gets to more balls and makes more plays. Of the options... He appears to be the guy who can best support a pitching staff and our pitching staff is going to need all the help it can get. I'm hoping the error on the routine ball will calm down. If it doesn't... The Twins will move on to the next option.
If the SS position was all about hitting. Teams would just put there backup 3B at SS and let it roll. Defense supports pitching... Pitchers with a 5 plus ERA could have an ERA in the 4's... If the SS or OF would have simply gotten to a ball to stop a 4 5 or 6 run inning from happening.
09-17-2012, 10:05 AM #32
This is what we have coming from New Britain (AA) and Fort Myers (A). Do they look like the next great hope for the Twins ?
Player POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS E Estarlin De Los Santos SS 100 287 38 62 9 1 2 24 79 17 59 8 6 0.277 0.275 0.216 0.552 14 James Beresford 2B 114 369 38 98 12 3 0 25 116 35 53 3 3 0.33 0.314 0.266 0.644 10 Daniel Santana SS 121 507 70 145 21 9 8 60 208 29 77 17 11 0.329 0.41 0.286 0.739 26 Levi Michael SS 117 431 58 106 14 4 2 38 134 56 82 6 0 0.339 0.311 0.246 0.65 16
09-17-2012, 03:34 PM #33
09-17-2012, 04:11 PM #34
09-17-2012, 04:56 PM #35
09-17-2012, 04:59 PM #36
09-17-2012, 05:02 PM #37
In reality the Twins need to "weird science" these three and take Dozier's brain and bat, Florimon's range and arm, and Carroll's fundamentals and plate discipline and make one SS . . . model.
Impossible? Well, just as likely as the Twins signing a FA SS or trading for one.