09-03-2012, 09:27 AM #21
I think it is impossible for laymen to judge what the doctors are doing. What seems to be beyond doubt is that the players, the team and the medical staff are not all on the same page. The players want to protect their careers, first and foremost, but they also want to play. They don't report small injuries and aches and pains because they don't want to get benched and they don't want to be considered malingerers. The most common scenario is an injury goes unreported until the player's performance suffers. The team wants their valuable assets to perform, but they want them long term. The medical staff wants to do what is right for the player, but they are employed by the team.
The three components need to communicate and get on the same page.
09-03-2012, 09:56 AM #22
The same people that are leaping to conclusions about the medical staff are leaping to conclusions about how these situations are handled on other teams. Nobody here can tell me how the Mets handle theirs or the Mariners or virtually any other team. Until somebody comes up with an exhaustive study on what is reported, whether or not they end up on the DL, and follow up, the "it doesn;t happen anywhere else" argment needs to stop.
I too am concerned about how the DL is used, but considering the team has had a huge rash of injuries and DL usage over the last 2+ years, with lttle in the way of help from the minors, I can understand their trepidation.
Also, players can can be as much to blame here as the doctors. If they aren'y up front about the injury, or the severety, it can be harder to diagnose.
Finally, all the players complaining about the Twins med staff are ex-players, except for Pavano, who will not pitch another game for this team. Could easily be sour grapes. Easy to blame somebody who will not respond in the public environment.
09-03-2012, 09:58 AM #23
09-03-2012, 10:39 AM #24
As far as the Twins' situation goes, there are a lot of issues, including the doctors; but players and especially management have to take some of the blame for the waiting for Godot to go to the DL... Missdiagnosis, is another story-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
09-03-2012, 10:40 AM #25
Originally Posted by savvyspy
09-03-2012, 10:42 AM #26
I don't believe the medical staff is doing a good job. That's not my point nor do I believe it to be Nick's point. It's easy to sit on your couch and "diagnose" maladies, especially when using the rearview mirror. It's even easier when you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about (is anyone here qualified enough to make even the smallest statement about the medical treatment of athletes?).
No one is arguing that the medical staff is doing a good job. From the outside, it looks pretty bad to a layman. But remember that last word, layman.
People need to stop pretending that they have the slightest clue what is going on behind closed doors and they need to stop pretending that they have the medical knowledge to properly understand if someone is doing a bad job in the first place. I want to see the medical situation "fixed" as much as anyone but I'm also smart (and honest) enough to know that I don't have the slightest friggin' clue what I'm talking about.
09-03-2012, 10:59 AM #27
09-03-2012, 11:12 AM #28
Overblown fan outrage? Say it ain't so, Rick.
Face it, the success of Twins Daily is, at least to a degree, the direct result of overblown outrage on the part of Twins fans these days about one issue or another.
JB_Iowa's comments are pretty on the money. I admit I have no clue whether medical/training staff are doing a good job in a tough situation or are botching things. Similarly, I don't know whether successive 90+ loss seasons are due to bad managing, coaching, scouting, general managing, overly frugal ownership or just poor player performances.
As a fan, I do know the Twins have been a bad team for too long and the results on the field, in much of the farm system, and in the training room have not been good. It also just seems far too simplistic to say it was all Bill Smith's fault and since he was reassigned, the Twins have installed a culture of accountability.
I'm not giving up on Terry Ryan because I don't think you can fix everything in one year. That said, although I'm not an expert on running a ballclub, I would like to see some evidence on the part of those in charge of the Twins (who certainly should be experts) that they are actively identifying areas that need improvement and are holding those in charge of those areas accountable.
09-03-2012, 11:24 AM #29
09-03-2012, 01:21 PM #30
09-03-2012, 01:30 PM #31
So what is exactly "overblown"? Is it too much to say that they appear to have made a number of very erroneous decisions the past two seasons? Maybe that isn't "outrage" but I think being frustrated is a pretty legitimate response to how medical issues have been dealt with.
09-03-2012, 02:21 PM #32
09-03-2012, 02:24 PM #33
This is correct, totally overblown.
09-03-2012, 02:43 PM #34
On the other hand, I've only seen a half dozen episodes of House and I didn't even like the show much. I'm not a doctor. In all likelihood, nobody here is a doctor or even involved enough in the medical profession to do anything except speculate wildly over half-truths and diagnoses not seen by anyone outside of the medical staff and the organization. Hell, we don't even know if anybody has been fired for these perceived issues with the medical staff. We know virtually nothing. In short, there are a hell of a lot of people going off half-cocked about a situation they don't even understand. They don't have the slightest clue how the medical profession works, how the system operates, and whether the Twins are doing anything right or wrong. They see a bunch of injured players and start to lay blame. Are they wrong? I don't know. That's not my point... The point is that they don't know, either.
And in life, I've generally found that it's best to shut up when you don't know something.
As fans, we get frustrated. That's expected. We want to see changes when things go badly. That's expected. But there's a big difference between stating "the Twins medical staff is incompetent and needs to be fired, along with the front office" and "damn, I wish this team didn't spend so much time on the DL... what is the problem here?". One is raising an issue and trying to determine if the organization is at fault while the other comes off as heavy-handed and supremely arrogant considering the complexity and nuances of the human body and sports injuries. After all, people spend eight ****ing years getting a degree just to be allowed to diagnose a person. Why don't some of the people in this thread stop to consider that they look like fools when they don their Internet White Coat & Clipboard and pretend that they have the slightest friggin' clue what they're talking about?
09-03-2012, 03:01 PM #35
I sense a staff meeting is in order, the topic: "How to avoid the 'Phil Mackey Disaffecting His Readers Effect' when writing articles"
"2) Similarly, I don't know whether successive 90+ loss seasons are due to bad managing, coaching, scouting, general managing, overly frugal ownership or just poor player performances. "
Let's see that's 6 possible answers, A/B/C/D/F/G....I'll vote for Box H- All of the Above.
"3) It seems to me that, as usual, too many people are blasting the situation......"
Despite a strong declarative opening statement from the new GM that the training/medical issues were a top priority, it seems demonstrably obvious to me by their repeated identical blunderings that the people in position to know and do something about the situation are first and foremost the prime suspects who don't, as of yet, have "any clear knowledge of what is going on."
And yet, to question the situation at this level of knowledge by the common layman is deemed "overblown outrage". Particularly after two seasons of: a peculiar happening, followed by an incidental instance, right after an odd occurence, after multiple players are physically unready to perform at a major league level on opening day, one seemingly innocuous injury after another, from the ridiculous- "bilateral leg weakness" (how was this 2011 epic catastrophe not even casually mentioned in the article?)- to the sublime- the repeatedly aggravating- Will he? Won't he? DL-Dance.
Silly and absurd characterization from the author about legitimate concerns that have yet to be properly addressed. This doesn't mean "fire everybody", but it sure as heck means complete evaluation and overhaul of procedures and the institution of accountability standards for everyone in the organization-, from the superstar on the field, to the top surgeon, to the masseuse on down to the towel boy.
09-03-2012, 03:32 PM #36
The bad track record is evidence enough thar the medical staff needs to be shown the door. It's the same with Gardenhire. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
09-03-2012, 04:05 PM #37
The only thing overblown is the thesis of this blog post. Nick did the same thing on the forum a few days ago and it's no less wrong now. This blog pins the argument into two absurd corners - either as staunch defenders of the organization out of medical ignorance or overly critical hyperventilators. Personally, I think the sane response to this issue is largely in-between.
This is a team that has been carrying 13 pitchers and one of the 12 position players (Butera) is a borderline major-leaguer with limited ability to contribute. When you spend 18 days with one of your other 11 position players in limbo - you're greatly impairing your team. Yes, this team is awful so the cost of this one position this year is minimal. However, bad practice is still bad practice no matter what the quality of the team is. Having a poor season is not an excuse to run your operation ineffectively. It's not "overblowing" anything to be critical of this.
I don't claim to know exactly what the problem is, but by comparison to other teams in the league it's clear the Twins are not utilizing the DL as effectively as others. It's also clear that their ability to assess and treat injuries is not at the same level as the other teams. There also appears to be an issue with player-medical staff communication. (Not laying fault either direction, probably both are guilty) I don't lump TJS into this because that could jsut be a fluke thing but it certainly adds to the frustrations, warranted or not. Again, I don't claim to know why the problems above are happening. That's for someone with more direct supervision of the team to assess and correct, but it's within my rights as a fan to question and be frustrated with what is now a two year trend.
It's not "overblowing" anything to be frustrated with the way the team is handling (or lack there of) injuries. It's one of many other things that the team needs to look at improving if they are going to return to contention.
09-03-2012, 04:39 PM #38
Is it the medical staff or is it the front office and gardy? The medical staff I'm sure gives an honest opinion on most cases, though they have seemed to botch a few. Pavano's arm, Kubel's foot last year, Mauer's knee, etc. But over the last year I've seen way too many day-to-day's turn into weeks, and then months. Which makes me think its more the front office then the doctors.
Lets say its something like this.
Dr. well its not great, blah blah blah, could use surgery
TR: well can he pitch through the pain?
Dr. yeah, the damage is done, if he can pitch through the pain he'll be fine.
TR: so and so is day to day with arm problems
Guy tries to pitch through it, struggles, they try rehab, that doesn't work, and then 8-12 weeks later they decide on surgery. Well was the Dr. wrong?
So I think it might not be 100% medical staff, I think it might be more the front office. I don't care what the Dr. is telling me, if my centerfielder can't take BP 9 days after the injury I'm going to DL him.
09-03-2012, 05:07 PM #39
I will give you one regarding J.J. Hardy. Hardy speaking with 1500's Phil Mackey
- "In spring training I started to feel it and got a little bit nervous, going, 'Oh (expletive), here we go again.' But the trainers worked on it, got rid of it in about a week, and I haven't dealt with it since." Hardy added that the treatment he received from Orioles' trainers was different than what had been tried in Minnesota, but he added, "I don't want to get into that too much and make people look bad, but yeah. It definitely was a little bit different."
Last edited by Highabove; 09-03-2012 at 05:12 PM.
09-03-2012, 05:21 PM #40
Originally Posted by The Leviathan