Yeah, so maybe while it was not a good trade by Bill Smith, the fact that the Twins aren't covering Santana's huge contract while he stays almost perpetually injured might not be such a bad thing after all.:p
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Yeah, so maybe while it was not a good trade by Bill Smith, the fact that the Twins aren't covering Santana's huge contract while he stays almost perpetually injured might not be such a bad thing after all.:p
I feel ****ty for Johan, its a shame really. If he can manage to get another 2 years of healthy ball somehow, he is a sure thing hall of famer, and most likely would go in wearing a Twins hat.
He needs more than two more good years before he's a sure hall of famer.
He would need at least five, all healthy and producing like he did with the Twins.
I dunno about that, pitchers from this era are going to be viewed differently in the future. Nobody is going to be approaching 300 wins again, and the days of 20+ year careers are going to go by the wayside more or less. Santana has put together 7.5 fantasic seasons thus far, if he can get 2 more fantastic years, and a couple "decent/good" years he should make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pius Jefferson
If he can put together a 3rd Cy Young (which we all know he should have already), he would be a shoe in hall of famer. He is already in rare company (only 16 pitchers have won multiple cy young awards), a third would put him among 8 others with 3 or more. All eligible pitchers with 3 or more Cy Youngs were 1st ballot HOF'ers.
if you want to do an interesting look at pitcher abuse points, take a look at how Johan was handled in NY vs. MN and compare to his injury history.
I would imagine it would look a lot like Carl Pavano's, except backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan
Every time I see Johan's name, I think "WHY wouldn't he go to LA?"
He would have been a God in Dodger blue... And the Twins would have been able to get more than filler in a trade to LA.
I was in favor of signing him for a deal like he got. Reasoning it is just so hard to find a true ace, what have we had 1 in 20 years. But this is the chance you take they will never get the production back for all that money. 61 more wins to get 200 he's 33 so 15 a year for 4 yrs gets him to 38. Not going to happen, imo. I don't think you get into the HOF with less than 200 wins.
It's possible that he doesn't get injured, or at least as much, if he stayed in the Twins organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Dog Dungan
Or . . . given how the Twins medical staff is . . . he may never have thrown another ball!
There are several starting pitchers in the HOF without 200 Wins: Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Gomez, etc. I believe Sandy Koufax was the last starter to get into the HOF with less than 200 wins in his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Smith
I stil miss Johan, loved listening to the game when he started, you knew the Twins had a good chance to win, especially when he heated up in the summer time. Glad that they didn't sign him to that type of contract though!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDaveI dunno about that, pitchers from this era are going to be viewed differently in the future. Nobody is going to be approaching 300 wins again, and the days of 20+ year careers are going to go by the wayside more or less. Santana has put together 7.5 fantasic seasons thus far, if he can get 2 more fantastic years, and a couple "decent/good" years he should make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pius Jefferson
I hope your right Dave and Santana get things turned around and be a real HOF candidate. I just don't see those necessary great years that get him over the hump. He can probably bounce back and be a good starting pitcher. Of course enough good seasons and he's around 200 wins.
Yes I understand that but I think Koufax was a special case, 3 Cy Youngs and an MVP. Dizzy and Lefty were a long long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetOne69There are several starting pitchers in the HOF without 200 Wins: Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Gomez, etc. I believe Sandy Koufax was the last starter to get into the HOF with less than 200 wins in his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Smith
That is why I initially said that if Santana can put together another Cy Young year he would be a shoe in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston SmithYes I understand that but I think Koufax was a special case, 3 Cy Youngs and an MVP. Dizzy and Lefty were a long long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetOne69There are several starting pitchers in the HOF without 200 Wins: Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Gomez, etc. I believe Sandy Koufax was the last starter to get into the HOF with less than 200 wins in his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Smith
Santana's case will never be similar to Koufax's.
I suppose anything is possible, but Santana an HOFer? No way, no way, no way. Comparison's to Koufax? What!? Kobs is on point that the 2 can never be compared to be similar. Johan had a nice short term run and he was great, but not Koufax great - now he is 33 with a tired arm and I would be surprised if he ever pitched 200 innings in a season again. Like I said, anything is possible, but Santana being proposed as and HOFer seems a bit outlandish. I'll even go as far as to say Jamie Moyer has a better shot at the HOF and that is not going to happen... strike that last sentence, but Santana as an HOFer is a ridiculous notion.
Ya, as much as I'd like to see to have seen Johan remain a Twin, and I'd like to see him in the HOF, I just think the injuries will cost him. It's fun to play the "what if" game with him.
This is all conjecture, of course, considering we're in the midst of the most prolific 200- and 300-win eras in the history of the game. For instance, check out the 300 game winners by era:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave
There have been 24 300-game winners in the ~135 year history of professional baseball...
9 from pre-1910: (Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Pud Galvin, Kid Nichols, Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Eddie Plank, Old Hoss Radbourn, Mickey Welch)
3 from 1910-1945: (Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Lefty Grove)
3 from 1945-1975: (Warren Spahn, Early Wynn, Gaylord Perry)
6 from 1975-1990: (Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Tom Seaver)
4 from 1990-2010: (Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson)
2010 really starts another era of baseball as we’ve seen a drastic change in the game around that point, so we’ll see what the current generation brings, but we’re right at normal for an era of 300-game winners. The feat is very rare, so we shouldn’t expect to see more than 1-2 in a lifetime, yet for most on this forum, we’ve seen at least 4 pitch, and I’ve been blessed to watch games of nearly half of the entire 300-game winners in my lifetime. This era has been one of the most prolific in producing 300-game winners since Babe Ruth was taking cuts. Guys like Sabathia or Halladay, if they get to that number, would also count toward the pre-2010 range as they accumulated most of their wins before 2010, so there's a legit possibility to see more 300 game winners in the lifetime of someone who is 30 than their great-grandparent did in his/her lifetime.