Thread: Article: Starting in September

Seth, I really know that for some reason you are high on Manship, but he has been worse that Blackburn in any of the 3 chances he got to pitch in the majors. Out of options in 2013. I think we can pretty much say that he is not in the Twins' plan for 2013. Also, the same with Walters. Horrible peripherals, horrible 88 mph FastBall etc. Matter of fact, I'd rather see them add BJ Hermsen to the 25 man roster and have him start a couple of games instead of Walters and Manship who are not going anywhere in 2013. Hermsen might make himself part of the equation next season and he needs to be added to the 40-man next season. And doing this this September instead nor they use any option neither his clock starts. Or Pedro Hernandez. He should be in the equation as well, maybe ahead of Hermsen. But no Manship. (and no Walters either.)

At this point, Manship is out there with Gray and Blackburn, IMHO. (and speaking of, DFA Gray and Free Anthony Slama where we are at it)

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Seth, I really know that for some reason you are high on Manship, but he has been worse that Blackburn in any of the 3 chances he got to pitch in the majors. Out of options in 2013. I think we can pretty much say that he is not in the Twins' plan for 2013. Also, the same with Walters. Horrible peripherals, horrible 88 mph FastBall etc. Matter of fact, I'd rather see them add BJ Hermsen to the 25 man roster and have him start a couple of games instead of Walters and Manship who are not going anywhere in 2013. Hermsen might make himself part of the equation next season and he needs to be added to the 40-man next season. And doing this this September instead nor they use any option neither his clock starts. Or Pedro Hernandez. He should be in the equation as well, maybe ahead of Hermsen. But no Manship. (and no Walters either.)

At this point, Manship is out there with Gray and Blackburn, IMHO. (and speaking of, DFA Gray and Free Anthony Slama where we are at it)

I agree with you on Manship.. But I'm curious if you watched PJ's starts. His fastball was hovering around 89-91 before he hurt his shoulder(same velocity as Diamond). He has a nasty curve ball and a solid changeup. If you're basing it on stuff.. Hermsen and Hernandez have similar velocity as Walters. I do believe in Hernandez more due to the fact he has an out pitch.. His change up. Hermsen still hasn't developed a plus pitch.. So he needs more work.

Originally Posted by JP3700

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Seth, I really know that for some reason you are high on Manship, but he has been worse that Blackburn in any of the 3 chances he got to pitch in the majors. Out of options in 2013. I think we can pretty much say that he is not in the Twins' plan for 2013. Also, the same with Walters. Horrible peripherals, horrible 88 mph FastBall etc. Matter of fact, I'd rather see them add BJ Hermsen to the 25 man roster and have him start a couple of games instead of Walters and Manship who are not going anywhere in 2013. Hermsen might make himself part of the equation next season and he needs to be added to the 40-man next season. And doing this this September instead nor they use any option neither his clock starts. Or Pedro Hernandez. He should be in the equation as well, maybe ahead of Hermsen. But no Manship. (and no Walters either.)

At this point, Manship is out there with Gray and Blackburn, IMHO. (and speaking of, DFA Gray and Free Anthony Slama where we are at it)

I agree with you on Manship.. But I'm curious if you watched PJ's starts. His fastball was hovering around 89-91 before he hurt his shoulder(same velocity as Diamond). He has a nasty curve ball and a solid changeup. If you're basing it on stuff.. Hermsen and Hernandez have similar velocity as Walters. I do believe in Hernandez more due to the fact he has an out pitch.. His change up. Hermsen still hasn't developed a plus pitch.. So he needs more work.

I agree, I saw Walters pitch against Detroit back in May (when Capps gave up the 0-2 shot to Cabrera to blow the save). At that game Walters fastball was getting up to 89-90 regularly, he was spotting his curve and his change-up had that lineup flailing. I think once healthy he's worth a bit of a look.

Originally Posted by JP3700

I agree with you on Manship.. But I'm curious if you watched PJ's starts. His fastball was hovering around 89-91 before he hurt his shoulder(same velocity as Diamond). He has a nasty curve ball and a solid changeup. If you're basing it on stuff.. Hermsen and Hernandez have similar velocity as Walters. I do believe in Hernandez more due to the fact he has an out pitch.. His change up. Hermsen still hasn't developed a plus pitch.. So he needs more work.

I think I probably missed 3 games the whole season. Here is PJ Walter's fangraphs page. You can see that per PitchFX has 3 FBs, a 4seamer, a two-seamer (these average at 88.x) and a cut FB that averages around 85 mph. Also a couple breaking balls and a change. If you look down a bit at his pitch values, you can see that only his slider is a decent pitch. Also he got a K/BB around 1.5, a K/9 around 5.5 and a WHIP at 1.5+ Not that great.

I have never seen Hernandez pitch. Cannot say much. Saw Hermsen pitch at Spring Training and, yes, he does not have overwhelming stuff. I saw his FB sit a tad higher than Walters' values in the Twins' gun behind home plate last ST. But Brad Radke never did either and neither does Scott Diamond. (I am not comparing any of these 3 players btw, just giving examples of Twins' pitchers will less than great stuff who had success.)

Originally Posted by thrylos98

I think I probably missed 3 games the whole season. Here is PJ Walter's fangraphs page. You can see that per PitchFX has 3 FBs, a 4seamer, a two-seamer (these average at 88.x) and a cut FB that averages around 85 mph. Also a couple breaking balls and a change. If you look down a bit at his pitch values, you can see that only his slider is a decent pitch. Also he got a K/BB around 1.5, a K/9 around 5.5 and a WHIP at 1.5+ Not that great.

I knew you would bring up overall stats but the reason why I asked if you watched him pitch is because he was a much different pitcher after the complete game against the Sox. His velocity dropped and his command wasn't the same. He reportedly had bad bullpen sessions prior to his last 3 starts and it showed on the mound which tells me that he was already hurt. Much like Pavano they kept running him out there. Take a look at first 3 games. 21.1 innings 2.95 ERA WHIP under 1 and a K/BB of 3. Keep in mind this was against the Blue Jays, Tigers and White Sox. I'm not saying he is a guarantee but I think you have to give him a long hard look when he's 100%

Originally Posted by JP3700

Originally Posted by thrylos98

I think I probably missed 3 games the whole season. Here is PJ Walter's fangraphs page. You can see that per PitchFX has 3 FBs, a 4seamer, a two-seamer (these average at 88.x) and a cut FB that averages around 85 mph. Also a couple breaking balls and a change. If you look down a bit at his pitch values, you can see that only his slider is a decent pitch. Also he got a K/BB around 1.5, a K/9 around 5.5 and a WHIP at 1.5+ Not that great.

I knew you would bring up overall stats but the reason why I asked if you watched him pitch is because he was a much different pitcher after the complete game against the Sox. His velocity dropped and his command wasn't the same. He reportedly had bad bullpen sessions prior to his last 3 starts and it showed on the mound which tells me that he was already hurt. Much like Pavano they kept running him out there. Take a look at first 3 games. 21.1 innings 2.95 ERA WHIP under 1 and a K/BB of 3. Keep in mind this was against the Blue Jays, Tigers and White Sox. I'm not saying he is a guarantee but I think you have to give him a long hard look when he's 100%

OK. It makes sense then. (but his velocities have been consistent throughout his career) If he will accept another minor league contract. He will be a MiLB free agent after this season. I would not mind giving him September (if healthy) and 2013 Spring Training to win a job (but I hope that the Twins would really get 2 pitchers better than Diamond, so that would make Diamond number 3 and talking about #4 and #5 competition here...)

Originally Posted by thrylos98

OK. It makes sense then. (but his velocities have been consistent throughout his career) If he will accept another minor league contract. He will be a MiLB free agent after this season. I would not mind giving him September (if healthy) and 2013 Spring Training to win a job (but I hope that the Twins would really get 2 pitchers better than Diamond, so that would make Diamond number 3 and talking about #4 and #5 competition here...)

There's a big difference between 88-90 and 84-86 which is what he was throwing in his last few starts. Plenty of starting pitchers do just fine at 88-90.

I created a projected 2013 roster recently and my rotation had:

1. Acquired pitcher
2. Scott Diamond
3. Acquired pitcher
4. Liam Hendriks
5. PJ Walters

AAA depth:
Kyle Gibson
Sam Deduno
Esmerling Vasquez
Pedro Hernandez
Cole Devries
Nick Blackburn
BJ Hermsen

*Not sure if Deduno and/or Vasquez would still be in the organization. Or Walters for that matter but I think he's the best option to start the season

Why do I have a bad feeling that 2013's starting rotation will include Pavano coming back on a contract similar to the one he signed in 2009 - $1.5M base with a whole bunch of incentives. Of course, if he is in fact healed, he might be tradable at the dealine next year.

What I want to know is has there ever been another MLB team to completely turn over their entire pitching staff by mid-Aug.? I feel bad for Duensing. He will do whatever is asked of him, but we all know he needs to be in the pen. I say bring them all up and let them throw. Shut Diamond down. See if anyone can emerge as a possibility for '13...but, the Pohlads need to open up the checkbook and let Terry Ryan find us some proven and competent pitchers. Someone in another thread used this word the other day--suckitude. Brilliant word. Twins Territory is tired of the suckitude.

Why would they shut down Diamond? Recomended max innings? Is this in the field manual? Doesn't he need to get used to pitching a 6 month season? What about next year? Will holding him back this september help him next september or beyond if needed? Dhokay! Wouldn't the same be true for all their pitchers who have been starting throughout the season like Hendricks? I'm sure the Twins probably have discussed the IP with Diamond but I think it's silly. It's not like they have a track record of healthy pitchers.

I agree with Seth, though once Diamond hits his innings mark, I would substitute in Pedro Hernandez. DeVries can take over Swarzak's spot next year (and be better . . . and be less of a moron) and has proved himself. I want to see the other six each get 5 starts to close the season.

Thrylos, I have to say your position taken against Manship is odd given your position on Casilla. It's really odd that you don't see the similarity in situations (though Manship *actually* has not been given adequate time in his proper role as a starting pitcher).

In any event Diamond, DeVries, and those 6 together provide me with a bit of encouragement going into an offseason that will likely involve signing only one near-top level pitcher (Marcum might be my choice there). Ideally, Diamond, Hendriks, and X would make up the bottom 3/5 of the rotation next year, but that isn't going to happen.

Originally Posted by Jack Torse

Why would they shut down Diamond? Recomended max innings? Is this in the field manual? Doesn't he need to get used to pitching a 6 month season? What about next year? Will holding him back this september help him next september or beyond if needed? Dhokay! Wouldn't the same be true for all their pitchers who have been starting throughout the season like Hendricks? I'm sure the Twins probably have discussed the IP with Diamond but I think it's silly. It's not like they have a track record of healthy pitchers.

It's a lost season and Diamond has never thrown this many innings in a season. At this point, why push the guy? The team badly needs him for 2013 and he's the only solid point in a rotation in chaos.