Thread: Article: The Elephant in the Room

My concern with the rebuilding approach is that the Twins have so little pitching in their system... even a couple trades can only do so much. Say you get 3 'B' pitching prospects somehow... a reasonable outcome will be one getting hurt, another being a reliever, and one making it as an OK starter. That's just not going to make a difference.

They really need 3 legit starters, which is an extremely tall order. Usually impossible, but between a solid group of free agents and the possibility of a trade or two, I guess it's theoretically possible. It may make more sense financially than trying to rebuild without much in the way of pitching prospects.

I'm sure Ervin Santana will not have his option picked up. He was dealing in the second half last year, but has had a terrible year. Usually a 2 to 1 K/BB guy.

Also, the Dodgers have 5 or 6 starters under contract. I wonder if they move Billingsley for a 1B. He is locked up for a couple more years, but has had injury problems

I think a JA Happ or Jair Jurrjens would be in the same mold the TWins might look at.

i just wish they would have gone for broke a few years ago when they had a healthy Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, along with productive Cuddyer and Kubel along with some decent starting pithing. They needed to put the chips on the table and go big, instead of always planning for the "future." We are in that "future" now, and it's nothing to be proud of.

Originally Posted by jm3319

i just wish they would have gone for broke a few years ago when they had a healthy Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, along with productive Cuddyer and Kubel along with some decent starting pithing. They needed to put the chips on the table and go big, instead of always planning for the "future." We are in that "future" now, and it's nothing to be proud of.

That season never existed. Outside of 2010, the Twins haven't had decent starting pitching since Santana left. And in 2010, Nathan was injured. Morneau was out. The team was still very good but it still had significant flaws.

The closest the Twins came to a season like that was 2006, when they should have handled the A's but didn't. They were a 96 win team (their best record since 1970) and straight-up choked in the playoffs.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

That season never existed. Outside of 2010, the Twins haven't had decent starting pitching since Santana left. And in 2010, Nathan was injured. Morneau was out. The team was still very good but it still had significant flaws.

The closest the Twins came to a season like that was 2006, when they should have handled the A's but didn't. They were a 96 win team (their best record since 1970) and straight-up choked in the playoffs.

It's sad to look back at 2006 and how well positioned that team was for a run of success. 25YO MVP Morneau. 23YO MVP-caliber Mauer. 27YO Cy Young Santana. 22YO rookie sensation Liriano. Awesome young bullpen led by Nathan. Hunter, Cuddyer, Bartlett...

And yet, not one playoff victory since that season. Sigh.

"And not doing so would be an injustice to the franchise's most valuable (and highly-paid) asset: Joe Mauer."

- This was (and has been for other arguments as well) my argument for why the Twins needed to draft a pitcher (such as Mark Appel), and not necessarily the BPA (Buxton) this year in the draft. Pretty soon Mauer's "prime years" window will be gone, and during that time the Twins will never have had an ace, or even a true #1 (or even #2) pitcher to compliment him. "Injustice" is a great understatement to me. They're not going to spend the money on one in Free Agency, and I don't recall them ever sending off a major Prospect to get a stud SP via trade. Thus if they ever want one, they have to draft one. This year was the best chance at that they were going to get.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

It's sad to look back at 2006 and how well positioned that team was for a run of success. 25YO MVP Morneau. 23YO MVP-caliber Mauer. 27YO Cy Young Santana. 22YO rookie sensation Liriano. Awesome young bullpen led by Nathan. Hunter, Cuddyer, Bartlett...

And yet, not one playoff victory since that season. Sigh.

Excuse me while I go chug a bottle of scotch.

Originally Posted by Steve Lein

"And not doing so would be an injustice to the franchise's most valuable (and highly-paid) asset: Joe Mauer."

- This was (and has been for other arguments as well) my argument for why the Twins needed to draft a pitcher (such as Mark Appel), and not necessarily the BPA (Buxton) this year in the draft. Pretty soon Mauer's "prime years" window will be gone, and during that time the Twins will never have had an ace, or even a true #1 (or even #2) pitcher to compliment him. "Injustice" is a great understatement to me. They're not going to spend the money on one in Free Agency, and I don't recall them ever sending off a major Prospect to get a stud SP via trade. Thus if they ever want one, they have to draft one. This year was the best chance at that they were going to get.

"Injustice" is an entirely inappropriate overstatement to me. Surely, both the Twins, Mauer, and his agent knew what they were getting into and what the possible, or likely, implications and consequences would be by signing the type of deal they jointly entered.

I don't think any court in the land would find that Mauer has been done any "injustice" at all. This statement is just plain silly and absurd on its face.

I am disappointed. When I saw the title for this article, I thought I would be reading about Matt Capps.

Originally Posted by Steve Lein

"And not doing so would be an injustice to the franchise's most valuable (and highly-paid) asset: Joe Mauer."

- This was (and has been for other arguments as well) my argument for why the Twins needed to draft a pitcher (such as Mark Appel), and not necessarily the BPA (Buxton) this year in the draft. Pretty soon Mauer's "prime years" window will be gone, and during that time the Twins will never have had an ace, or even a true #1 (or even #2) pitcher to compliment him. "Injustice" is a great understatement to me. They're not going to spend the money on one in Free Agency, and I don't recall them ever sending off a major Prospect to get a stud SP via trade. Thus if they ever want one, they have to draft one. This year was the best chance at that they were going to get.

Not taking the BPA in the draft is a slippery slope to step on. You make excuses for doing it one year and it's not hard to come up with reasons to continue doing it every year thereafter.

Originally Posted by jokin

"Injustice" is an entirely inappropriate overstatement to me. Surely, both the Twins, Mauer, and his agent knew what they were getting into and what the possible, or likely, implications and consequences would be by signing the type of deal they jointly entered.

I don't think any court in the land would find that Mauer has been done any "injustice" at all. This statement is just plain silly and absurd on its face.

Yeah, hard to get upset for a guy who entered into a legal contract knowingly and is getting paid $23M/year. The true injustice is to the fans who have funded the stadium and pay to go see the games.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Excuse me while I go chug a bottle of scotch.

Or anti-freeze.

Originally Posted by Oxtung

Yeah, hard to get upset for a guy who entered into a legal contract knowingly and is getting paid $23M/year. The true injustice is to the fans who have funded the stadium and pay to go see the games.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by jokin

"Injustice" is an entirely inappropriate overstatement to me. Surely, both the Twins, Mauer, and his agent knew what they were getting into and what the possible, or likely, implications and consequences would be by signing the type of deal they jointly entered.

I don't think any court in the land would find that Mauer has been done any "injustice" at all. This statement is just plain silly and absurd on its face.

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

Detroit is going to figure this out the hard way in a few years.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

If you take out the part of your post that starts with "It's not so much...", and ends with "...More so,", I'm in 100% agreement with you. I argued along those lines previously this spring that the nightmare of 2011 so coldcocked the Twins that they were unable to move forward with "the plan" as envisioned in 2009- and were returning to their comfort zone of the late 70s/early 80s and 90s years of meciocrity while they pare the payroll of existing big $ contracts.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

This is just my gut feeling but I don't think the Pohlad's really care. They seem to be in this for the business reasons more than the fanatical fan reasons. As long as the Twins are making them money everything else is a secondary concern. Now that's not to say that they don't want to win. I just think it's obvious they value the fiscal earning power of the Twins over the social or emotional bonuses of putting a championship caliber squad on the field. I don't think we should fault them for this either. The Twins certainly aren't a charity the Pohlad's should be expected to donate money to so they can win a championship. Even having an owner whose driven by fandom and that wants to do whatever he can to win isn't necessarily a good thing. Do you end up with Mark Cuban or Daniel Snyder?

Sorry, while my original point was related to your post I seem to have wandered off somewhere in the middle. I am not trying to imply that you have made any claims about the Twins ownership.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

This is exactly why I don't like to hear talk of waiting for 2014 or 2015.

Originally Posted by Oxtung

This is just my gut feeling but I don't think the Pohlad's really care.

Gut feeling? The Pohlads could be far more interested in their legacy than profit for all we know (after all owning a baseball team is rather vane, a self-effigy of sorts).

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

It's sad to look back at 2006 and how well positioned that team was for a run of success. 25YO MVP Morneau. 23YO MVP-caliber Mauer. 27YO Cy Young Santana. 22YO rookie sensation Liriano. Awesome young bullpen led by Nathan. Hunter, Cuddyer, Bartlett...

And yet, not one playoff victory since that season. Sigh.

I can't help but think of how the Twins celebrated after coming from behind and winning the central on the final day of the season. They were already in the playoffs, and there they were celebrating like the just won the World Series. I thought it was silly. I didn't get it.

Then the playoffs start and they forgot to showup. This organization seems to think that's the ultimate goal...to win the Central. In the end, it just isn't that big a deal.