Thread: Gardy's Bullpen Usage Tonight

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Why is Gray still in the majors? Guerra has been back off the DL in Rochester. Obvious move.

Guerra has been garbage in AAA over the past couple months.

John,
I agree with your 1, 2, and 3 (head scratcher from last night). I came away from last night content that the Twins didn't trade away Perkins or Burton. There are still a couple of weak links in the bullpen and hopefully those spots can be filled from within by the end of the season.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Guerra has been garbage in AAA over the past couple months.

He pitched hurt. Now he is fine.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

He pitched hurt. Now he is fine.

You sure? Since coming back he has pitched 3.1 IP, 3 ER, 8 H.

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

Okay, this isn't really a defense of Gardenhire because as most of you know, I believe that the Twins need some significant changes on and off the field, but here's my take:

I believe that the reason Gardenhire and the Twins were able to win the Central fairly regularly over the last 10 years was that he took a "long view" at the season. More than most managers, he epitomizes "keeping an even keel". It is frequently evident in his comments (we'll get 'em next time and we battled our tails off and there's another game tomorrow). It is evident in his lineup construction (please remember the frustration many fans have had when he has failed to move "hot hitters" up in the line-up). It is evident in his BP usage (relievers have a slotted "spot" and he doesn't like to vary from that).

And for the most part it has worked in the regular season. Even now, for those of you who are optimistic and refer to the improvements you've seen this season, I think a large part of it is Gardenhire's willingness to stick with his methods even in the face of defeat.

But while it has generally made him a successful regular season manager, I've always believed that it contributed to (note I didn't say it was the reason for), the Twins downfall in the playoffs. Then, there ISN'T always another game (or at least not many). Success takes on a new urgency in the post-season and sometimes you have to be creative about what you are doing as a manager and the team needs to be able to shift gears (of course, some power pitching wouldn't hurt).

Gardenhire's use of Gray last night really wasn't anything new. And it wasn't anything different from his pattern in years past. With a little better quality BP, he may have "gotten away with it" a little more often but there were plenty of frustrating moments then, too.

Gardenhire isn't going to change ,,, the question is whether the Twins need to make one.

100% Agree

Originally Posted by rocketpig

What's baffling is that we as fans can recognize just how useless the statistic is but management of well over half of baseball can't do the same.

I thought the goal of baseball was to win games. I didn't realize it was to accumulate statistics that are completely arbitrary. Hell, even the "win" stat has more relevance than the save. Well, most of the time, anyway.

Absolutely. Gardy's explanation is inexcusable, but it would be ignorant to pretend that he's the only manager who manages like that, or that he's even in the minority.

What's baffling to me is that managers assume, by the solve virtue of a statistic, that a 1 to 3 lead is obviously a "high leverage" situation. Yet, if you have a tie game, or maybe even a game where you're down by one and confident that you can put up another run or two, Gardy suddenly treats that situation almost the same as he would mop-up time. It makes no sense to me.

The weakness of the whole "anti-save" argument crowd tends to be that it would just have you using your best pitchers over and over again, and wearing them into the ground. But here, Gardy admitted that he had a pitcher available, but only if it was a "save" situation. In a tie game, the other team doesn't have an advantage any more than you do. If you have a better pitcher available, it makes no sense to hold them out for the 11th or 13th inning, when you won't even get there if you give up runs in the 9th. If you can't use him the following day then so be it.

agree that certain manager/teams style of 'whole season' is good & Twins were able to capitalize on it in a weak decade long division, but he totally is overmatched when it comes to winning ONE certain game or series.
Again, comes down to NOT doin everythin you need to win the game. Other things were more important. In a 100 loss season, who cares.....but fans.

Originally Posted by rocketpig

Hell, even the "win" stat has more relevance than the save.

"Win" stat > Jeff Gray



Oops, wrong thread.

I saw Gray on the mound and immediately turned the channel to watch the US Women Gymnastics team win the Gold...only because I "knew" what the result of him pitching would be. Well, had a hunch at least.

I look forward to the day when coaches and managers in all sports understand strategy and tactics better, and when taking chances will be rewarded, not punished. Lots of interesting reads online about why most innovation in sports happens at the high school level, and not the professional levels.

I had no problem with how Gardy used his pen. Obviously you try to win every game but what is the point of blowing out a pitcher at this point of the season? Burnett, Burton and Perkins had all pitched the previous two games. Frankly I didn't want to use any of them, and if Gardy was only going to use Perkins if the Twins were up in the 9th I don't have a big problem with that.

The issue is that his other five options were Fien, Gray, Robertson, Manship and some guy whose name I still don't know. That is more a Terry Ryan issue. I don't think Guerra needs to be called up yet until he has proven he is back healthy and effective, but probably time for Olivereros and Waldrop to be up. Fien might be worth to keep around, but no reason for Gray or guy whose name I still don't know to be here.

Originally Posted by JB_Iowa

Okay, this isn't really a defense of Gardenhire because as most of you know, I believe that the Twins need some significant changes on and off the field, but here's my take:

I believe that the reason Gardenhire and the Twins were able to win the Central fairly regularly over the last 10 years was that he took a "long view" at the season. More than most managers, he epitomizes "keeping an even keel". It is frequently evident in his comments (we'll get 'em next time and we battled our tails off and there's another game tomorrow). It is evident in his lineup construction (please remember the frustration many fans have had when he has failed to move "hot hitters" up in the line-up). It is evident in his BP usage (relievers have a slotted "spot" and he doesn't like to vary from that).

And for the most part it has worked in the regular season. Even now, for those of you who are optimistic and refer to the improvements you've seen this season, I think a large part of it is Gardenhire's willingness to stick with his methods even in the face of defeat.

But while it has generally made him a successful regular season manager, I've always believed that it contributed to (note I didn't say it was the reason for), the Twins downfall in the playoffs. Then, there ISN'T always another game (or at least not many). Success takes on a new urgency in the post-season and sometimes you have to be creative about what you are doing as a manager and the team needs to be able to shift gears (of course, some power pitching wouldn't hurt).

Gardenhire's use of Gray last night really wasn't anything new. And it wasn't anything different from his pattern in years past. With a little better quality BP, he may have "gotten away with it" a little more often but there were plenty of frustrating moments then, too.

Gardenhire isn't going to change ,,, the question is whether the Twins need to make one.

The reason the Twins won the Central fairly regularly was because they had good pitching and the ineptitude of the rest of the division, not because of Gardy's inane platitudes.

Originally Posted by drjim

I had no problem with how Gardy used his pen. Obviously you try to win every game but what is the point of blowing out a pitcher at this point of the season? Burnett, Burton and Perkins had all pitched the previous two games. Frankly I didn't want to use any of them, and if Gardy was only going to use Perkins if the Twins were up in the 9th I don't have a big problem with that.

The issue is that his other five options were Fien, Gray, Robertson, Manship and some guy whose name I still don't know. That is more a Terry Ryan issue. I don't think Guerra needs to be called up yet until he has proven he is back healthy and effective, but probably time for Olivereros and Waldrop to be up. Fien might be worth to keep around, but no reason for Gray or guy whose name I still don't know to be here.

+1.

The "soft underbelly" of the Twins bullpen.

Most major league baseball games are close. It's the nature of the beast. You cannot expect to have only 2 relievers you trust in any close and late situation, and have them pitch all those innings. Over the course of a season, your entire bullpen is going to be in position to win, or lose, games. Lots of them. That's the takeaway from this game, not which one of his few trusted relievers he elected not to use.

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

What a load of nonsense.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

No, we're wondering why the best relievers on the team aren't used in the ninth during a tie game but during a 3-0 game, you toss that "bullpen ace" out there to pitch the inning.

It's completely ****ing counter to logic. Well, it is if you want to actually win close and late baseball games at a higher rate than other teams.

Just compare the relievers Ventura used in the tight game with Jeff Gray. Terrible decision making by Gardy. Casey Fein has actually been the most of effective of the relievers Gardy had available. I've seen Fein pitch in several games, and he strikes guys out. What does Gray do? Gets ahead 0 and 2 and then gives up a hit to Rios, and then gets ahead 0 and 2 and gives Pierzynski a low slightly inside pitch and Whamo--a two run homer with 2 strikes. What the heck was he doing (catcher also included here)? You don't throw inside to Pierzynski--keep the ball away from him and out of the strike zone with an 0 and 2 count. Gardy is so stubborn and predictable in his "maneuvers" with relievers. I suspect more than a couple of people said to themselves "this ain't good" when they saw Gardy bring Gray into the contest.

Originally Posted by Kobs

What a load of nonsense.

Please elaborate. I'm sure your take will be every bit as insightful as your one sentence proclamations about the futility of giving Plouffe some ABs were.

Originally Posted by rocketpig

No, we're wondering why the best relievers on the team aren't used in the ninth during a tie game but during a 3-0 game, you toss that "bullpen ace" out there to pitch the inning.

It's completely ****ing counter to logic. Well, it is if you want to actually win close and late baseball games at a higher rate than other teams.

I believe it was "reliever"--singular-- not "relievers". He had Perkins semi-available but would have preferred not to use him. Burton wasn't available. I understand the argument for Perkins, but past that, who are the other options much if any better than Gray?

For the record, Gardy has in the past used his "closer" in exactly the situation you described above at home.

I think the problem in this case is a shallow BP.

Originally Posted by Twinsoholic

Just compare the relievers Ventura used in the tight game with Jeff Gray. Terrible decision making by Gardy. .

Ventura used his "closer" before having a lead in the ninth?

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Please elaborate.

No need.