Thread: PioneerPlanet.com Article Dredges Up Mind-Melting Gardy Chestnuts

"Numbers lie a lot," Gardenhire told the Pioneer Press then. "I have a hard time believing all that stuff (about the increasing use of statistics). Our scouts do that, they show me all those numbers. I show them the door. You go by the numbers and a lot of guys wouldn't be playing."

...

Gardenhire employed similar language in April 2010, when Sports Illustrated did a piece on the rising use of baseball statistics by MLB teams. "... I like the human element, and I like the heart way better than I like their numbers," he told the magazine. "And that's what I'll always stay with."

http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_2...thods-dont-add

Nutshelled.

<facepalm> jdnsidif

Gardenhire doesn't see himself as a numbers guy?!?! RON Gardenhire!??! Those words melted the tail right off my mind.

Your manager of the year Ron Gardenhire.

This stuff is gold, Jerry. Gold!

The Gardenhire quotes are the least troubling aspect of this article.

Yes, Gardenhire is an old-school baseball guy (or a dinosaur if you want to be less kind).

But at this point he is merely a symptom of a much deeper organizational problem.

Replacing him would be putting a band-aid on a cut without curing the disease.

I have no problem with Gardy not trusting some numbers. Some of the stuff thrown around on the web as fact is, in fact, unproven at best and complete horse$##! at worst. I happen to agree with Ron about defensive metrics, for example. I'd trust Gardenhire's opinion about a player's defensive skills way before I'd trust any of the defensive metrics.

But I do have a problem with Twins upper management not even knowing what most of those numbers purport to tell them, not knowing how they're arrived at, but dismissing most of them out of hand. I believe it was Rob Antony in an interview on TT a couple years ago who couldn't even state what the letters in BABIP stand for, much less form an opinion on it's usefullness. That's criminal, IMO.

Keeping up with the latest research, developments, lines of thinking, etc is the responsibility of management in ANY business. By all means, discard it as useless if you don't like it, but make that decision after learning what the heck it is other people are talking about. Make that decision out of careful consideration, not out of willful ignorance.

"You go by the numbers and a lot of guys wouldn't be playing."

I'm trying to wrap my head around this quote.

Gardy's right that if you made decisions solely based on numbers, some of the guys who are currently playing for the Twins might not be. But someone else would - somebody with better numbers.

There's some degree of eyeball analysis and managing of egos that goes into managing and I won't question that. But there's no reason to plug your ears and close your eyes to statistical information.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

I have no problem with Gardy not trusting some numbers. Some of the stuff thrown around on the web as fact is, in fact, unproven at best and complete horse$##! at worst. I happen to agree with Ron about defensive metrics, for example. I'd trust Gardenhire's opinion about a player's defensive skills way before I'd trust any of the defensive metrics.

But I do have a problem with Twins upper management not even knowing what most of those numbers purport to tell them, not knowing how they're arrived at, but dismissing most of them out of hand. I believe it was Rob Antony in an interview on TT a couple years ago who couldn't even state what the letters in BABIP stand for, much less form an opinion on it's usefullness. That's criminal, IMO.

Keeping up with the latest research, developments, lines of thinking, etc is the responsibility of management in ANY business. By all means, discard it as useless if you don't like it, but make that decision after learning what the heck it is other people are talking about. Make that decision out of careful consideration, not out of willful ignorance.

I doubt Burl is talking about zone rating or xfip...the reason this is so frightening, he was most likely talking about all stats, including the "classics."

For those that didnt read the article the first quote is from 2003.

Is this really surprising? It actually makes a lot more sense... the Twins suck because they haven't evolved with the game. Pretty much exactly what many have thought.

The Twins just put a major focus on adding power arms to the organization. From the pitching stand-point they at least indirectly admitted a change is necessary.

I honestly don't know how much of the problem is an antiquated philosophy or poor player development. There's players drafted or signs that had strong sabremetric attributes.

Originally Posted by DPJ

Your manager of the year Ron Gardenhire.

nope. Manager of the Millennium

Is it possible that Gardy has been quoted out of context?

Originally Posted by Riverbrian

Is it possible that Gardy has been quoted out of context?

C'mon Brian, that never happens on the internet.

its not going to happen, but i think its time for the twins to move on from gardy

As has been said, it was a quote from 2003. And we don't know if it was taken out of context. In some ways, I agree with a lot of what's written above. I also agree with Gardy. I think it's irresponsible for a manager or a front office to not take all available information into account when decisions need to be made. That said, I always appreciate a manager who is willing to go against the book. We (as fans) do not know all of the information that the manager knows about players and behind the scenes stuff, and who just flat-out needs a day off or that kind of stuff. The beauty of baseball is there is no ONE correct way to think.

Originally Posted by Seth Stohs

As has been said, it was a quote from 2003. And we don't know if it was taken out of context. In some ways, I agree with a lot of what's written above. I also agree with Gardy. I think it's irresponsible for a manager or a front office to not take all available information into account when decisions need to be made. That said, I always appreciate a manager who is willing to go against the book. We (as fans) do not know all of the information that the manager knows about players and behind the scenes stuff, and who just flat-out needs a day off or that kind of stuff. The beauty of baseball is there is no ONE correct way to think.

Seth, the day to day thing is one thing. Personnel decisions like handing a starting job to Blackburn out of ST last season, while everything pointed out that they shouldn't, is another. That another is why Gardy needs to either get the 21st century or retire. (and not only him, the Twins' FO, starting with the 130 year old Minor League Player development director should be in line too...)

Originally Posted by Badsmerf

Is this really surprising? It actually makes a lot more sense... the Twins suck because they haven't evolved with the game. Pretty much exactly what many have thought.

Did that non-evolvement just catch up with them in 2011?

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Did that non-evolvement just catch up with them in 2011?

Nope. Last World series was in 1991. That is 21 seasons ago. After McPhail left, this team started to fall apart.