05-30-2012, 03:18 PM #21
05-30-2012, 03:21 PM #22
05-30-2012, 03:23 PM #23
Last edited by JB_Iowa; 05-30-2012 at 03:49 PM.
05-30-2012, 04:05 PM #24
05-30-2012, 04:27 PM #25
First, as for the anecdote of the Yankees treating Naulty more graciously, I read it as Joe Torre, and not an organizational thing. I also thought it was implied about one or more of the demons he was dealing with, which he had established he had kept hidden as much as possible. I didn't go back to read again to see if that's how it came off on a more thorough go-through. But yeah, I cringed a little to read that.
Second, and sort of related, I can't imagine a very high percentage of the overwhelming majority who are released from a minor league team like the way it was done very much, regardless of the organization. My first feeling while reading some of those was similar to comments of "ugh" but it's just an ugly time that I'm sure is awful to most everyone involved for the last hundred+ years.
Third, someone commented about the ENORMOUS change in Naulty and how that wasn't what the "word on the street" had been (as opposed to "it helps heal" or makes smaller improvements). I don't know, but my thought would be that possibly/probably Naulty went to extremes more than others with usage and that's why his body rejected the overwhelmingly large burden (tore is groin muscle right off the bone?!??!).
But yeah...I was right in my comment early in the thread...the article really bummed me out in a lot of ways. Did folks read the article linked within the linked article about Serafini? He comes off...poorly. To me (copyright Ron Coomer).
05-30-2012, 04:49 PM #26
Insinuating is not a strong enough word. I thought I was being very blunt. I could see if it was 1 person at the top who was oblivious. But the Twins have a HUGE number of front line people. Scouts...trainers...coaches...doctors. No, if the people at the top didn't know it's because they, implicitly or explicitly, let it be known that they did not want to know.
You have a point on the pitcher vs hitter thing. I'm sure that a few people didn't realize pitchers use muscles too.
As I recall there were "hundreds of thousands of words" written on the obvious juicing and drug usage.
Cansenco was mocked because he was a clown. Not because he was lying. And a lot of the people doing the mocking were practicing intentional obfuscation.
It's not hard to remember for everyone. It was NOT a naive era, you and Verducci notwithstanding.
John, I don't mean to be harsh. I like and appreciate your work. But jeeze dude.
05-30-2012, 04:55 PM #27
05-30-2012, 05:07 PM #28
What do you think some of the former Twins players like Dan Gladden and Jack Morris would say about that? After reading that article (which was great by the way), I came away thinking the 90's and 2000's drug use was even more prevelant than I thought. There could be a lot of players who I enjoyed watching and even put on a pedestal, who were cutting corners to gain an edge.
05-30-2012, 05:08 PM #29
Caminiti's confessions was in October of 2004. Even then, it was viewed as an isolated incident. Canseco's book was in 2005. Steroids were certainly in the news in other sports before that - just look at how many references in the article above reference "body builders" - but they were not viewed as a problem or factor in baseball. That many not seem to be the case considering how huge a story they became, but nobody was talking about this in the 90s. I suppose that doesn't mean that inside baseball it wasn't recognized, but I take a look at the quotes from the other 3 prospects and conclude that was probably not the case.
05-30-2012, 05:19 PM #30
What do you think some of the former Twins players like Dan Gladden and Jack Morris would say about that?
I think they'd go into the same shell that Dan Serafini is in: guys in the game (or who want to be in the game) have to live in the baseball community and won't own up to anything specific. It's only when they've moved on that they talk about this stuff. It no coincidence that the only ones talking about this are completely out of professional baseball.
05-30-2012, 05:45 PM #31
John, back in the 90s I would have bet money that steroids and all the related compounds were running wild in baseball clubhouses. I could not have proven anything, but too much was changing too fast for any simpler explanation and I like simple explanations. (What's more likely: some subterfuge from the head office somehow being kept under wraps by the entire industry, or young, impulsive, competitive athletes latching on to promises of huge increases in performance at little cost?) Look at how the shape and size of the players changed between the 1991 Twins and the 1999 team. Look at how hard pitchers were throwing compared to a decade earlier. Look at the number and distances of HR and ridiculous spikes in what guys were accomplishing. As evidence, I wouldn't take it to court with me, but if any pro athlete tries to tell me he added 30 pounds of muscle by lifting weights and getting his rest I'm not going to believe him. Everyone I know believed they were doing something to get huge, and the only question was where the cheating line was at any given time. Other sports had proven that these drugs worked and baseball was merely catching up. I think everyone on this board thinks there are a significant number of players cheating in the NFL, and in retrospect it's kind of quaint to believe that somehow the guys that played baseball were morally above similar temptation.
05-30-2012, 06:02 PM #32
I've got a decade or so on you. I don't remember a lot of talk about steroids in the early 90's but I have 2 vivid memories from 1998: the first was related to Mark McGwire and Andro. I just put in "McGwire Andro" and it pulled up an SI story that I recall: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...re_supplement/
I distinctly recall wanting to discount the effects of Andro and to believe in McGwire because I was enjoying the home run race and I wanted it to be real and not tainted by allegations of steroid use. But this story has stuck with me over the years.
The second recollection I have is more of a personal one. I remember a non-baseball fan asking me why I cared about McGwire-Sosa -- because they are "all using drugs anyway."
So, while I don't recall much chatter about PED use in the early to mid-90's, I have distinct recollections of it being an issue by 98. But I believe that many fans simply didn't want the game to be disrupted again and wanted to believe that there was a level playing field.
05-30-2012, 06:59 PM #33
1) andro was not banned by baseball
2) McGwire completely admitted to using it.
A lot of the commentary on that story made sure to emphasize that there was nothing WRONG with it, it was jsut a little disillusioning that players could get better that way. I feel like it reaffirms my point - the drug culture was still mostly unknown and most were pretty naive about it. It is a huge stretch to say that because Nautly was putting on 10-20 pounds on during the offseason (and by the way, not using at all during the season) that the Twins should have guessed (or passively approved) that Naulty was sticking himself with needles in the offseason.
05-30-2012, 07:24 PM #34
Good article. Unfortunately it utterly pooh-poohs the notion that anything but steroids could possibly have had anything to do with an ISO explosion that looks, in year-by-year graphical form, like a plateau. Because, you know, everybody started using them at once, then everybody stopped at once. Plus, they didn't help pitchers and/or pitchers didn't use them. Oh wait...
05-30-2012, 07:31 PM #35
Fascinating, and sad.
05-30-2012, 07:42 PM #36
I think it demonstrates that the baseball community as a whole just didn't want to deal with the issue. They failed to deal with it in the CBA and then simply couldn't control its proliferation. The Olympics, NFL and NCAA had already banned Andro before the article. Bud Selig (the gutless wonder), Don Fehr (the player enabler), owners and the players (all of whom wanted the $$$ to keep rolling in) simply did not want to deal with the issue. And although Andro wasn't banned by baseball, I distinctly remember this article opening my eyes and making me uncomfortable. I wanted to believe in McGwire's position that it wasn't illegal but I remember this article giving me a queasy feeling even though I really didn't have any understanding of the impact of steroids at the time.
As for Thrylos' assertion about Tom Kelly and the clubhouse attendant, it was in 2000 or 2001 according to the Mitchell Report. So, not in the 1990's but definitely before Ken Caminiti.
I don't know whether the Twins should have known something was going on with Naulty. But I do believe that Baseball as a whole -- and that undoubtedly includes the Twins -- deliberately chose to bury their heads in the sand.
05-31-2012, 06:36 AM #37
Wow, that was a great article. As others have said, I was definitely not planning on spending that much time reading an article, but I couldn't stop.
05-31-2012, 07:14 AM #38
I had forgotten the Kelly thing, much like with greenies though, people just don't care for some reason....Win Twins.
05-31-2012, 10:20 AM #39
People always associated steroid use with superstars with power or 96mph fastballs. There were as many finge players doin them & plenty of average throwers who used em just to get to that point. Lookin back, there were SEVERAL Twins that Im pretty sure were using quite regulary.
05-31-2012, 10:37 AM #40
Unlike some of you, I decided I really DIDN'T have time to read the long story (as well as the follow up online post by Verducci) until today, so I'm coming a bit late to the party.
For the record, I'm pretty much in agreement with Bonnes on the issue of how widely acknowledged and accepted (or even suspected) the PED use was in the 90s. In fact, even when Congress started conducting hearings in the early 2000s, my general feeling was, "don't those people have more important issues to deal with than this?" Clearly, there WERE people who "knew" much of what was happening in the 90s, but I tend to believe that most people who now claim they "knew" are taking advantage of 20-20 hindsight.
As for the comments made by Naulty regarding Joe Torre being more "gracious" than what he was accustomed to in Minnesota, I took that as meaning, "compared to Tom Kelly," and I don't think it would surprise many people to hear that Joe Torre, especially in the late 1990s, came across as a more gracious manager than Tom Kelly.
Last edited by Jim Crikket; 05-31-2012 at 10:50 AM.I post regularly on our Knuckleballs blog (http://knuckleballsblog.com/)
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