Thread: Terry Ryan and Gardy

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Part of the rebuilding blocks would have come by trades. As I said:



They have to re-build their SP next season. This is a fact. They could have started this season (and save some $ to throw at some free agent SPs next off-season too).

Here is a thought:
Take a lineup of Revere CF, Benson RF, Tosoni/Mastroianni/Dinkelman LF, Parmelee 1B, Casilla 2B, Dozier SS, Valencia 3B, Mauer C, Morneau DH
a pitching rotation of Hendriks/Swarzak/Blackburn and a couple people in the afforementioned (Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano etc) trades and
a pen of Perkins as the closer, Tyler Robertson, Burnett, Duensing, Deolis Guerra, Lester Oliveros and maybe a couple people who would have come in trades or other AAA guys.

would that team be much worse than 5-12 at this point? how much more? 3-14? Would that matter that much? OR Would the extra experience for these guys, the extra $ saved towards a good SP next season, the prospects and the extra draft pick (from Capps) matter more? I do think so.

Trade talk is pretty dubious though. There's a lot that goes into it, and a lot of it is stuff we never hear about. Furthermore, there have to be willing trade partners. I don't know if many teams would have traded much for any of those guys due to 2012 salary or 2013-2014 salary (in Span's case . . . and his health) when they could just sign guys on the market for the same price. I doubt any of the three pitchers will be around in 2013 unless Liriano is in the bullpen, but I don't know if any of them are trade candidates, unfortunately.

I cannot really see any problem with signing Willingham and Carroll. Not taking care of the pitching situation was and clearly is the problem.

You picked the Twins to win the Central...and make it to the World Series. Just sayin...

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Part of the rebuilding blocks would have come by trades. As I said:



They have to re-build their SP next season. This is a fact. They could have started this season (and save some $ to throw at some free agent SPs next off-season too).

Here is a thought:
Take a lineup of Revere CF, Benson RF, Tosoni/Mastroianni/Dinkelman LF, Parmelee 1B, Casilla 2B, Dozier SS, Valencia 3B, Mauer C, Morneau DH
a pitching rotation of Hendriks/Swarzak/Blackburn and a couple people in the afforementioned (Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano etc) trades and
a pen of Perkins as the closer, Tyler Robertson, Burnett, Duensing, Deolis Guerra, Lester Oliveros and maybe a couple people who would have come in trades or other AAA guys.

would that team be much worse than 5-12 at this point? how much more? 3-14? Would that matter that much? OR Would the extra experience for these guys, the extra $ saved towards a good SP next season, the prospects and the extra draft pick (from Capps) matter more? I do think so.

You picked the Twins to win the Central...and go to the World Series. Just sayin....

I think where thrylos is right is that unless they fixed the rotation, this year was going to be a rebuilding year. However, I think management was hoping that the starters would be serviceable with an added innings eater (Marquis), and a healthy Mauer and Morneau along with the stopgaps of Willingham and Caroll would be enough to hide the rebuilding year with a team that perhaps could have played .500 ball. I don't think that's a wholly unacceptable plan - it would help keep fans happy - but that plan has blown up in their faces thus far, as a single major injury (Baker), a couple of missed starts (Marquis, Blackburn), and an immense head-block (Liriano) has exposed the lack of quality arms in the system in the same way that the injuries last year exposed a lack of quality position players. They have been fooled twice, so shame on them as the saying goes.

All that said, I don't think that it is impossible that next year would mark a dramatic turnaround for the better, but it absolutely requires an infusion of talent in the starting rotation. Getting one starter off the free agent market is mandatory, and it is looking more and more as though two is necessary. Two seems so out of character with the franchise's mentality that I don't have a strong inkling that would occur. But given the performance and obvious signs of the last two years, they have to consider all things.

If they aren't planning on aggressive spending in the FA starting pitching market this coming offseason, then they should have blown it up exactly as thrylos suggested, in my opinion. If they are planning on FA spending, then what they did makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by ltwedt

...They fiddled wile the FA market burned, and now it's time to pay the piper...

Nice. Two idioms in one sentence.

Originally Posted by Gernzy

This will be a big draft for the Twins since we do need to focus on pitching. Twins have made moves to improve the rotation and bullpen, just not many, and some where horrible. For example the Hoey trade, which I hated from day one. That was a complete waste. The Pavano deal was good. He has been one of our most steady pitchers. What other moves were they going to make with all the potental starters we have? Unless we completely rebuild as Thrylos said.

I understand why we didn't pick anyone up, and I feel people are placing blame when they shouldn't be. You can't plan on everyone doing bad. All these starters haven't been that bad in the past.

Wait until next season to really start hating the front office. We are going to have a different staff

Lots of teams have little or no chance at significantly competing for a spot in the postseason. "Rebuilding" is a label attached by people outside the team to those teams who giving significant time to younger players that have a chance to a be part of the future.

This team is not "rebuilding" because they really skipped an entire wave of prospects through a combination of bad drafting, bad development, and bad luck. This team really doesn't have the option to bottom out with youngsters because the wave of players in their early or mid-twenties (Hicks, Benson, Parmelee, Gibson, etc.) are either busts, injured, or fringe MLB players. However, if you look at the 18-21 year old prospects in the organization, there are signs of hope (Sano, Arcia, etc.)

The good news is that they stockpiled so many picks in this years draft. And I absolutely agree that it needs to focus a lot on pitching, including a few POWER arms. But given the fact that you can't trade MLB draft picks and much of the picks in the first round are governed as much by signability as by talent/potential, it isn't like other sports where finishing as low as possible in the standings gives you a clear benefit in the draft.

Good point Storm. I think we can expect the twins to be competitive (i.e. not the royals and orioles of the past decade) for a few years until the young kids in E-Town and lower are ready. Other than Pavano, the only guys we have that are worth A-list prospects all have had recent injury and/or consistency issues (Baker, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, Span). We'd basically be selling low on everybody, which is only going to make things worse in the long run

"It IS partially the front office's fault that the pitching is bad". No, it is all managments fault that the pitching staff is so bad. Did you watch Blackburn last night? As bad as you can get for a starting pitcher in the major leagues. The ball is so straight, no zip, very little changing speeds, no change-up to mention. This team is not a small market team--two years ago before the passing of Carl the franchise was listed as the richest in all of baseball. The management, or ownership, has to step up to the plate. They needed to sign a few good free agent pitchers. However, in relation the the draft, I think you should sign the Florida catcher first--then go for the pitchers after that. Because of the uncertainty of Joe's health we need to take care of that. Good pitchers will be available from round 2 on--Then sign 1 or two free agent pitchers--this yr. or next!

I miss the days when you could catch an opposing GM with a few cocktails in him and pull off a Pierzynski for Nathan, Liriano, & Bonser deal. Now they are all ex-hedge fund managers who run everything through a Bayesian inference first. We need to upgrade.

Liriano and Blackburn looked really good in spring training. What the heck happened? I think Liriano might be better off in the bullpen as he seems to do fine for an inning or two. I don't know how many innings our starters averaged last year, but it didn't seem like they pitched anymore then than they are now (except Pavano.) A few clutch hits by our offense would also make the starts a bit more confident. It's a mess...

Originally Posted by Mr. Ed

Clete Thomas' signing is only a good move, if he's played less. 13 strikeouts in 22 at bats?

I thought Clete Thomas was brought in to be the 4th outfielder not the starting RF. That is my problem with the move. I would rather see Ploufe play more than Thomas.

Originally Posted by powrwrap

I agree with you that they are reacting quicker and making more moves, but my impression is that they are nibbling at the edges. Plouffe playing for Casilla is a nice move but I don't believe that Casilla feels that his starting job is in jeopardy, he's had what, four tries at it so far? They need to do something that will really send a message. I would suggest that they:

1. Send Liriano down to AA or even A ball if he stinks again. Bring Diamond up, he's 4-0 with a 1.07 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP. Could he do worse than Liriano?
2. Send Valencia down to Rochester if he continues to be un-coachable. Play Burroughs. Bring Luke Hughes up and work him out at 3B.
3. If Capps fails again (only a matter of time) promote Perkins to closer.

Make some significant noise, send some real messages. If I were a player and I saw how much failure someone else can endure with hardly any consequences, why should I be worried about my status? Coupled with last year's practice of players telling the coaching staff they would rather not play there is little reason for players to feel their job is threatened.

Luke Hughes now plays for Oakland and Liriano is out of options and cannot be sent down without clearing waivers.

Originally Posted by powrwrap

My bad, I was not aware that Luke Hughes had been cut. Liriano could go to the pen but then he has no trade value come July. He needs to get his act together as a starter.



Who plays 3B? Please don't say Valencia...

I feel any player who is not a superstar in the last year of a contract has little value since they changed the way draft pick compensation is done now. Any team trading for Liriano would not receive any picks if he signed with another club.

Originally Posted by darin617

I feel any player who is not a superstar in the last year of a contract has little value since they changed the way draft pick compensation is done now. Any team trading for Liriano would not receive any picks if he signed with another club.

Just because a team wouldn't get compensation for Liriano signing with another team wouldn't mean a team wouldn't trade for him. They wouldn't trade for him because he looks awful right now. Or, they just wouldn't give the Twins much in return for him.

Terry Ryan was re-hired in November. Don't you think he should be given more than 5 months to try to repair the damage done by Smith?

Also, the "fire sale" approach of trading every established player for propsects never work. You don't want to become a team that is perpetually building for tomorrow. Ask a diehard Royals fan how they've like being the team of the future for over a decade now.

There's enough here to remain at least competent if not competitive while the cupboard is restocked. There's no need to go to the extreme of fielding a minor league team. Fans will not show up for that. And what established free agent will want to come here to babysit a Romper Room roster of kids who would be better off in the minors?

Originally Posted by darin617

I thought Clete Thomas was brought in to be the 4th outfielder not the starting RF. That is my problem with the move. I would rather see Ploufe play more than Thomas.

Agreed.Clete gets too many at bats for this team. Already.

Understand what your saying about the financial committments made to Willingham/Marquis etc, but I'm not sure throwing prospects to the wolves and making them struggle and play before they are ready could really hinder their development. These are 20 year old young men, its never good for anyone much less kids with fragile psychis to hit near the mendoza line

Originally Posted by twinzgrl

Liriano and Blackburn looked really good in spring training. What the heck happened? I think Liriano might be better off in the bullpen as he seems to do fine for an inning or two. I don't know how many innings our starters averaged last year, but it didn't seem like they pitched anymore then than they are now (except Pavano.) A few clutch hits by our offense would also make the starts a bit more confident. It's a mess...

Spring training numbers rarely mean anything (Valencia and Hughes had big ST, too.).

Originally Posted by peterb18

This team is not a small market team--two years ago before the passing of Carl the franchise was listed as the richest in all of baseball.

You are mixing two different concepts.

Valencia has one of the worst swings in MLB. I don't know if he is coach able or not but he looks like a power hitting 12 year old with the foot in the bucket swing up there!! Will NEVER hit a big league breaking ball!! Liriano may do ok as a 6th or 7th inning guy but I don't see him thriving under late inning pressure. Has Casilla been that bad? Last I saw I thought he was hitting .270-.280? The biggest problem i have seen is the lack of production from Mauer/ Morneau with runners in scoring position and often with less than two outs. Yes, pitching has been bad but these guys have to drive in runs. A .300 hitting 3 hole with 65 RBI does nothing for me. We know the pitching will be bad, Mauer and Morneau have to make up for that. I don't see how we can move Carroll off of SS until we are ready to totally give up. We are only 18 games in. It's most likely going to be a tough year. Ryan has us positioned well to get some decent prospects back at trade deadline with Willingham, Carroll, and possibly Span.