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Article: Escobar Impressing at SS

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:32 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...mpressing-at-SS

#2 Larsbars08

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:59 AM

Didn't Escobar have a great start to the season last year before he got injured? I was at the Tigers game last year where he hit the walk-off double. Seems like he could be a solid regular if he could achieve any kind of consistency.

#3 Seth Stohs

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:05 AM

Didn't Escobar have a great start to the season last year before he got injured? I was at the Tigers game last year where he hit the walk-off double. Seems like he could be a solid regular if he could achieve any kind of consistency.


He wasn't hurt, he just couldn't hit after April.

Escobar is a solid glove at all three positions, and can play in the OF too. I think Florimon's defense is elite. I can't see Escobar starting over him, but I can see him getting a little bit more playing time early just to help ease Florimon back into things.

#4 Larsbars08

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 03:49 AM

Huh. I had remembered him getting hurt, but I guess I was wrong.

#5 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 05:37 AM

I do remember him getting off to a great start. While I'd say the odds are low, he's shown enough with the bat where I'd like to see him get an extended shot at the job... That's my 2 cents.

#6 troyhobbs

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 05:41 AM

He wasn't hurt, he just couldn't hit after April.

Escobar is a solid glove at all three positions, and can play in the OF too. I think Florimon's defense is elite. I can't see Escobar starting over him, but I can see him getting a little bit more playing time early just to help ease Florimon back into things.


Florimon's D is very good but I think elite is using the term a bit loosely. I've never heard his name in a national conversation about the best defensive players in the game and I view he and Escobar as pretty much the same player.

#7 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 06:11 AM

Meager though it may be, Escobar has a little upside. I'd like to see him get a shot at starting this season.

#8 Riverbrian

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 06:34 AM

Florimon's D is very good but I think elite is using the term a bit loosely. I've never heard his name in a national conversation about the best defensive players in the game and I view he and Escobar as pretty much the same player.


I've heard his name mentioned in National conversation. I don't worry bout that much though.

He's elite in my opinion and I'm hard on Defense. Florimon and Dozier were a great combo up the middle.

Simmons is the best
Iglasias is probably next(in my opinion)
I think Florimon is #3 and in the conversation.

I also believe that the level of defense being played right now is uncharted territory. The stuff that Simmons is doing consistently hasn't been done before. Iglasias, Florimon, Segura are taking SS defense to a whole new level.

I like Escobar and I don't want this to sound like I'm dissing his defense... But... He isn't near Florimon defensively.
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#9 hybridbear

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 06:58 AM

Support the Eddie 400!

http://twinsdaily.co...g-The-Eddie-400

Edited by ashburyjohn, 17 March 2014 - 11:24 AM.
added the link, for those who may not get the reference


#10 Riverbrian

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 06:59 AM

One more thing on Florimon's elite-ness.

Florimon has a lifetime MLB OPS of .601 after 548 at bats at the age of 27.

With a hitting track record like that... Here's the question.

Do the Twins hold the SS position for him if he wasn't defensively elite?

No they wouldn't...

The reason Florimon is around for TD members to complain about is because he is defensively elite. If he wasn't... He'd be gone at age 27.

I know that some believe that the Twins front office is run by door stops. But... C'mon.

On topic... I like Escobar... He's a fine defensive player. He looks like the primary backup at 2B,3B and SS.
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#11 Dantes929

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 07:42 AM

"Do the Twins hold the SS position for him if he wasn't defensively elite? " I believe he is very good defensively. Elite might be going far. The Twins hold the position for him because he is very good defensively and there is little competition. Escobar isn't that much better offensively and Santana, at the moment, is not average defensively.

#12 Thrylos

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 07:50 AM

Florimon is not elite, unless by "elite" you mean "above average". With a whole bunch of different metrics he is from 4th-15th SS in the league. For me "elite" is an all time equation. Ozzie Smith was elite.

As far as why Gardenhire is starting Florimon if not elite, this is because it is his MO. Punto, Buscher, Tolbert, Butera et al. were not elite by any means. Actually Punto is a pretty good defensive comparable at SS for Florimon, other than the high line drive ball.

I always have been high on Escobar and I think that he will have a great season this season. Little known fact: SS is his natural and best position and he won the VWL gold glove last winter. Also, he is not a good third baseman by any means. He is better than Plouffe, but this does not mean that he is good (see the above link for metrics and defensive comparisons with Florimon, if you care.)

Would a contender stand to have Florimon's bat at SS? If not, the Twins should not either.
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#13 tobi0040

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 07:56 AM

[quote name='Riverbrian']One more thing on Florimon's elite-ness.

Florimon has a lifetime MLB OPS of .601 after 548 at bats at the age of 27.

With a hitting track record like that... Here's the question.

Do the Twins hold the SS position for him if he wasn't defensively elite?

No they wouldn't...

QUOTE]

I don't think it is a question of "holding" the position. I think it is a situation of Florimon being the nicest trailer home in the community.

It is frustrating to see the battle between Florimon, Bartlett, and Escobar in year 3 of a rebuilding effort.

#14 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 07:56 AM

We'll see how Florimon is doing as the local paper here said he'll be in the lineup today against the Orioles.
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#15 Jim Crikket

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:24 AM

It is frustrating to see the battle between Florimon, Bartlett, and Escobar in year 3 of a rebuilding effort.


I think the Twins are very disappointed that Santana hasn't figured out how to play SS competently, yet. If he hadn't butchered so many ground balls last year, I think he'd have been competing for the starting SS job by now.
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#16 Shane Wahl

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:56 AM

Hopefully Danny Santana follows the Florimon model of defense (though hopefully at 3-4 years younger) and moves from flashy, spectacular, and routine-play-error-prone, to just flashy and spectacular.

Florimon just needs to make more contact. He's a potential 15-25 homer-sb guy at his best.

#17 tobi0040

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:01 AM

I think the Twins are very disappointed that Santana hasn't figured out how to play SS competently, yet. If he hadn't butchered so many ground balls last year, I think he'd have been competing for the starting SS job by now.


Maybe, but he was never really a top prospect. Outside of drafting Levi, we haven't done anything at the position outside of brining in guys that were not well regarded or basically dumped by their teams (Florimon and Escobar).

When is the last time the Twins had an above average SS? Bartlett for a year or two here maybe. Then the one or two years Guzman had.

#18 birdwatcher

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:10 AM

Florimon is not elite, unless by "elite" you mean "above average". With a whole bunch of different metrics he is from 4th-15th SS in the league. For me "elite" is an all time equation. Ozzie Smith was elite.

As far as why Gardenhire is starting Florimon if not elite, this is because it is his MO. Punto, Buscher, Tolbert, Butera et al. were not elite by any means. Actually Punto is a pretty good defensive comparable at SS for Florimon, other than the high line drive ball.

I always have been high on Escobar and I think that he will have a great season this season. Little known fact: SS is his natural and best position and he won the VWL gold glove last winter. Also, he is not a good third baseman by any means. He is better than Plouffe, but this does not mean that he is good (see the above link for metrics and defensive comparisons with Florimon, if you care.)

Would a contender stand to have Florimon's bat at SS? If not, the Twins should not either.


Come on, thrylos, isn't that a cheap shot on Gardy? He played those players because they were his best option, the lesser of two evils. He played the best players he had to work with, thrylos. THAT's his MO.

#19 birdwatcher

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:13 AM

Why is it not possible to simply argue that the field staff is wrong in it's viewpoint that Florimon makes them better as a team than Escobar as the starting SS?

#20 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:19 AM

Come on, thrylos, isn't that a cheap shot on Gardy? He played those players because they were his best option, the lesser of two evils. He played the best players he had to work with, thrylos. THAT's his MO.


It's almost impossible to defend the 2006 season and the shortstop situation out of Spring Training.

Now whether that was Gardy or Ryan or both, I don't know... but Juan Castro.

Ugh. Juan Castro.

#21 Shane Wahl

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:35 AM

Why is it not possible to simply argue that the field staff is wrong in it's viewpoint that Florimon makes them better as a team than Escobar as the starting SS?


You do know that Escobar's career MLB OPS is lower than Florimon's, right? Given that, and given Florimon's defense is better, where is there an error in judgment?

#22 Shane Wahl

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:42 AM

I believe an average of WAR (Fangraphs and BR) for Florimon in 2013 was 2.0. Now imagine his bat improving a bit this year after his first full-ish season in MLB?

#23 cmathewson

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:52 AM

It is possible Escobar could be developing. But his track record doesn't suggest it. If anything, he is winning the competition for the utility role. And his play does give us confidence it won't be a big drop off in case Florimon is not ready for opening day.
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#24 cmathewson

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:00 AM

Florimon is not elite, unless by "elite" you mean "above average". With a whole bunch of different metrics he is from 4th-15th SS in the league. For me "elite" is an all time equation. Ozzie Smith was elite.

As far as why Gardenhire is starting Florimon if not elite, this is because it is his MO. Punto, Buscher, Tolbert, Butera et al. were not elite by any means. Actually Punto is a pretty good defensive comparable at SS for Florimon, other than the high line drive ball.

I always have been high on Escobar and I think that he will have a great season this season. Little known fact: SS is his natural and best position and he won the VWL gold glove last winter. Also, he is not a good third baseman by any means. He is better than Plouffe, but this does not mean that he is good (see the above link for metrics and defensive comparisons with Florimon, if you care.)

Would a contender stand to have Florimon's bat at SS? If not, the Twins should not either.


It depends on what the definition of the word "is" is.

If you're in the top 4 in baseball, you're elite by most people's standards. Escobar is below average defensively. It is possible he could have a smidgen more offensive upside. He has a shorter swing, which should make him less slump prone. Given his fast start last year, I'm skeptical about his spring numbers. He was really streaky last year.

OPS by month:

April: .935
May; .361
June: .612
July: .368
Sept: .755
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#25 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:11 AM

You do know that Escobar's career MLB OPS is lower than Florimon's, right? Given that, and given Florimon's defense is better, where is there an error in judgment?


True, but the OPS posted by Escobar in the minors last season in 188 PAs is higher than anything Florimon has posted anywhere at any point in his career (.880 OPS in SSS).

And Escobar is two years younger.

Really, I think neither one should be anywhere near a starting job in MLB but Florimon is probably close to his ceiling while Escobar may have some room to grow.

#26 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:15 AM

I believe an average of WAR (Fangraphs and BR) for Florimon in 2013 was 2.0. Now imagine his bat improving a bit this year after his first full-ish season in MLB?


Again, not sure why anyone is banking on Florimon improving with the bat this season. The guy went into a tailspin after one good month.

OPS by month in 2013:

.612
.784
.460
.683
.555
.557

I don't see any reason to expect improvement from that player. If not for what appears to be a flukish May, he's well under a .600 OPS for 2013.

#27 Paul Pleiss

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:15 AM

The Eddie 400 is a real posibility. 400 AB's for the super utility man. If Flo can't find his swing or range in the next couple weeks Eddie starting the season opener and holding onto the job for awhile if his bat stays hot. This team needs to find a way to score runs, and while Flo provides better ability defensively, a hot bat from Eddie would go a long way to shoring up the bottom of the lineup.

#28 Dave T

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

Hopefully Danny Santana follows the Florimon model of defense (though hopefully at 3-4 years younger) and moves from flashy, spectacular, and routine-play-error-prone, to just flashy and spectacular.

I agree. Santana has a lot of talent, and could be the "good enough to play for a contender" shortstop that thyrlos is looking for. He just needs more development. If he proves himself at AAA, he'll get a fast promotion.

I think the Twins want Florimon to be the starting SS because Escobar can play every infield position. I don't see Florimon as the utility infielder, do you?

#29 TheLeviathan

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

It's almost impossible to defend the 2006 season and the shortstop situation out of Spring Training.

Now whether that was Gardy or Ryan or both, I don't know... but Juan Castro.

Ugh. Juan Castro.


Right and this was hardly an isolated incident.

So the real question is whether Escobar has the mythical "leadership skills" requisite for any Gardy SS. Since I don't have the slightest damn idea what those are....I guess we'll find out soon enough.

#30 tobi0040

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:33 AM

Right and this was hardly an isolated incident.

So the real question is whether Escobar has the mythical "leadership skills" requisite for any Gardy SS. Since I don't have the slightest damn idea what those are....I guess we'll find out soon enough.


Oh, the Gardy immeasurable statements. "He really gets after it". A pitcher "was really flipping it".