Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

The Store

Photo

Article: Mauer Making a Statement?

  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,009 posts

Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...ing-a-Statement

#2 TwinsGuy55422

TwinsGuy55422

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 244 posts

Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:42 PM

Having Mauer on the field everyday is great. Even when he is not playing at an MVP level, he is still far better than most. I think he will continue to heat up as the season goes along.

#3 twinswon1991

twinswon1991

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 256 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:25 AM

Is there a non-zero chance the Twins could trade Mauer's albatross contract???? Without trading the contract, this team will have little chance of competing until Joe is gone. Terry Ryan needs tons of payroll flexibility to make up for his laundry list of mistakes due to his old school thinking.

#4 Fire Dan Gladden

Fire Dan Gladden

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 382 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:44 AM

Mauer making a statement is only part of this. Of course you want a top tier offensive player in the lineup as much as possible. Gardy is doing what he can to ensure he is in the lineup every day. Looking at the flexibility of the bench is a key component to this.

#5 twinks2012

twinks2012

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:13 AM

Is there a non-zero chance the Twins could trade Mauer's albatross contract???? Without trading the contract, this team will have little chance of competing until Joe is gone. Terry Ryan needs tons of payroll flexibility to make up for his laundry list of mistakes due to his old school thinking.


Terry Ryan's laundry list of mistakes? I think he did pretty well with the money he had this off-season...It would of been nice to get a solid starting pitcher addition, but that's just not easy to do on the free agent market dealing with the money and years they want to give.

#6 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,029 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:15 AM

"Is there a non-zero chance the Twins could trade Mauer's albatross contract????"

Is there a non-zero chance that Twins fans will ever stop complaining about this contract when the guy was highly UNDERPAID for years and years and then had ONE bad year at the beginning of the contract?

"Without trading the contract, this team will have little chance of competing until Joe is gone."

This is just false. The Twins could compete spending as much as they are now . . . the problem is that they are spending too much on terrible-to-average pitchers.


#7 jeffk

jeffk

    Member

  • Members
  • 73 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

Is there a non-zero chance that Twins fans will ever stop complaining about this contract when the guy was highly UNDERPAID for years and years and then had ONE bad year at the beginning of the contract?


For a small-market team part of winning is underpaying guys and then moving on. Overpaying him now to somehow make up for the value we got from him early in his career may be good for Joe, but it's bad business for us.

Having said that, I don't really mind that much overpaying one excellent franchise player. But there's no point in pretending that he is likely to earn every dime of that contract, even if he plays well.

#8 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 5,786 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

I think it is great he's on the field, and his legs do look fresh. Quite a bit of his WAR is due to his running better. His XBH however, needs some work. He's being outslugged by 8 qualified catchers, I don't even want to look at dh/1B stats....He needs to hit better for the money, he just does. At this price (more than 20% of the entire budget), he needs to be better. But, I agree, great, great sign that he's on the field every day.

#9 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:48 AM

$23m/per and he gets praised because he's managed an iron man streak of three weeks?

#10 deanlambrecht

deanlambrecht

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 149 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:49 AM

For a small-market team part of winning is underpaying guys and then moving on. Overpaying him now to somehow make up for the value we got from him early in his career may be good for Joe, but it's bad business for us.

Having said that, I don't really mind that much overpaying one excellent franchise player. But there's no point in pretending that he is likely to earn every dime of that contract, even if he plays well.


We're not a small market team any longer, from a $$ perspective. We're decidedly in the upper half, even with this year's lower (starting) payroll.

#11 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,029 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:09 AM

He's hitting .389 with RISP. And slugging .667. Do those numbers mean nothing to the Mauer haters? There are four guys hitting well on this team. Why not focus negative attention towards the rest of the batters and the vast majority of the pitching staff.

#12 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 5,786 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:21 AM

shanewahl, 8 catchers are outslugging him, does that mean nothing to you? And, I'm not a hater, I'm a fan...
Lighten up Francis....

#13 MileHighTwinsFan

MileHighTwinsFan

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

Let's be clear - Joe Mauer is and will be the face of this franchise for the balance of his contract. He knows it, Gardy knows it and management knows it. While probably every piece will change around him in the next two years, I fully expect him to be in the lineup almost everyday as the one constant that will bridge this franchise to the future. Like Killebrew, Carew, Puckett/Hrbek before him - Mauer is who people will come to watch, win or lose, as the Twins rebuild. I am not surprised in the least that he is playing everyday and playing at a high level.

#14 jmlease1

jmlease1

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 153 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:56 AM

He's playing quite well, although it would be nice to see a little more power production. It's still early, and I expect we'll see more doubles flying around the park. But the anti-Mauer folks (Dan Barreiro, please pick up the white courtesy phone) will cherry-pick any failure as proof that he's crap and unworthy of his contract. He's a great player and with his legs under him this season, i think he's going to prove it all year. With Doumit available to catch, it's far less painful to have Joe plays a little 1B, DH, etc. and hopefully it will keep him able to play a lot more games. That said, if Mauer is trying to prove anything, it won't be seen by a lot of the haters until a) he drives in a ton of runs (still too many people who rely on the RBI to show who a "good" player is), B) hits more home runs (chicks dig the long ball?), and c) plays a full season appearing in 140+ games. But I'll be perfectly happy if he plays a lot, hits like Joe Mauer, and quietly gives a big ol' middle finger to the critics.

#15 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,251 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:16 AM

The key point isn't where he ranks right now in SLG (and that's not his stat to watch anyway, he's a BA/OBP guy). It's that he's healthy and Gardy is finding a way to get him in the lineup every day. My contention might actually be that they are making a statement that they shouldn't. I would have no problem with him missing a game every 20. He is still catching at least half the time, so a true day off would not be a bad thing.

#16 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 5,786 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:45 AM

I do agree with Seth, that he should not try to play every game. I don't agree with Seth that walking and hitting singles adds up to $23MM worth of player, not on a team with a $100MM or less payroll. He does need to SLG more also.
Lighten up Francis....

#17 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:49 AM

I do agree with Seth, that he should not try to play every game. I don't agree with Seth that walking and hitting singles adds up to $23MM worth of player, not on a team with a $100MM or less payroll. He does need to SLG more also.


+1 all around.

#18 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,251 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:53 AM

olHe'll get his SLG via doubles. He's 29. to a large extent, he is what it is at this point. I don't think it's fair or right to expect him to be something that he isn'tjust because of the contract that was signed 2 years ago. I don't want him to change the approach that has made him a future hall of famer.

#19 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,009 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:45 PM

I do agree with Seth, that he should not try to play every game. I don't agree with Seth that walking and hitting singles adds up to $23MM worth of player, not on a team with a $100MM or less payroll. He does need to SLG more also.

It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.

#20 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,251 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:54 PM

It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.


That is correct!

#21 Paul

Paul

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 153 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:10 PM

It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins...


How do you know? If you mean from a business perspective I believe you are clearly wrong. If you mean from an on the field perspective it seems debatable. (I suggest those who believe no other team would pony up for Joe haven't been paying attention to the market.) If you mean from a humanitarian point of view I agree with you. No human is worth that kind of dough because genetics allow them to play the game that they love better than everyone else.

#22 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.


A) money is a factor in MLB whether we like it or not. Particularly for teams not playing in Yankee Stadium.

B) given that, the issue then becomes if he can't earn his salary under the current situation, what can he and/or the team do differently in an attempt to come as close as possible.

IMO the team can move him off catcher so that 3 weeks without missing time is less likely to be a source of wonder and celebration, and Mauer can learn to turn on the ball and accept that being a run producer means sometimes you go up to the plate and look for a pitch to hit, rather than trying to avoid hitting until you have no choice.

#23 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 5,786 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:37 PM

Um, because that is his salary, and it impacts what else they can do with the roster. Because people are talking about his worth/value to the team, and that has to be measured against his salary. Value has a cost, and his cost is a really big number. How should he be measured, if not against what he costs? How about against other catchers? Even then, if he was paid $1MM, last year would have been a successful year, but he's not paid $1MM. So how should he be measured, if not by his contribution relative to his cost? Isn't that how value is determined? For example, if he stayed where he is in WAR right now, how would you judge him, if not against how much he costs relative to that WAR? Because for $5MM, he's a bargain...should we discount, say, 8MM a year for being a hometown boy (which he's not, actually), meaning we should judge him relative to $15MM per year? Because you can't just judge him relative to other C/1B/DH, without understanding the cost of that contribution relative to what other players produce per dollar spent.
Lighten up Francis....

#24 SD Fan

SD Fan

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:37 PM

It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins.


I had to make an account to dissagree with this. I live in western SD and have been a Twins fan my entire life. I drive my family the 10 hours to Target Field for a weekend every summer. I do it so when my kids grow up, they can say, "I got to see Joe Mauer play baseball when I was a kid." We all have Mauer jerseys, Twins hats, etc. If they wouldn't have paid him, I wouldn't do any of that, I wouldn't watch every game on FSNorth. I would be done with baseball because I am so sick of the bleepin Yankees paying all the best players to leave. I probably would have completely sworn off the entire State of MN, never to return or even acknowledge it's existance. My kids would flunk geography because there would just be a big blank hole next to SD on our maps. Make no mistake, he may never hit more than 15 HR's again or be worth $23M to any other ball club, but he is definately worth the $23M to the Twins!

#25 Ultima Ratio

Ultima Ratio

    Super friend

  • Members
  • 1,743 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:41 PM

This is why you move Mauer to the 2-hole --- he's a very (too) patient single/doubles hitter who get OB a lot, but not an RBI guy. This also gets our best hitter more ABs. Why not make this move? B/c Grady likes a "balanced" lineup? B/C it's an admission of weakness, that you're "supposed" to have your best hitter in the 3-hole? Vs. RHP VS. LHP (changes) Span Mauer Willingham Morneau (1B) Doumit (DH) Valencia Parmellee (RF) Plouffe (RF) Carroll Casilla
Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

#26 Ultima Ratio

Ultima Ratio

    Super friend

  • Members
  • 1,743 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:46 PM

Matt Holiday is making 15million/year and has a better career (162 games total average) OPS than Mauer and much higher RBI. If you look at adjusted OPS+, you'll find he's between David Wright and David Ortiz, both making 14-15million/year. This is what Mauer is worth on the field, roughly. Is there an off the field dollar amount, sure, but let's at least parse the two separately, but there's also an off the field number or Ortiz, Holiday and Wright, no?
Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

#27 TwinVike61

TwinVike61

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 164 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.


You're right...how about $150,000 per game...or $17,000 per inning?

Seroiusly, we're all just jealous. People would still be griping even if he had settled for $18M per year or even $13M...maybe not.

I do agree that it's too bad that's what it always comes back to. Joe is a great ballplayer who's having a solid start to the season by his standards and would be considered great by most other's standards.

#28 SweetOne69

SweetOne69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 448 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

Matt Holiday is making 15million/year and has a better career (162 games total average) OPS than Mauer and much higher RBI. If you look at adjusted OPS+, you'll find he's between David Wright and David Ortiz, both making 14-15million/year. This is what Mauer is worth on the field, roughly. Is there an off the field dollar amount, sure, but let's at least parse the two separately, but there's also an off the field number or Ortiz, Holiday and Wright, no?


Matt Holiday, David Wright and David Ortiz don't play Catcher. The added $8M comes from his ability to put up that OPS from the most physically demanding position in the game.

#29 SD Fan

SD Fan

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

Every player has an off field value, yes. But I believe that number is figured into the total deals already. You can't separate the two because it's too difficult to say with any certainty what a players off field value really is. In Mauer's case, I believe his is quite a bit higher than most, if not all current MLB players(Jeter might be close). I just feel like people need to let it go and enjoy watching him play without breaking down everything into dollars. I realize it's a business, but the look on my kids faces when he comes up to bat and we're live at the game is priceless to me. Sometimes you just have to overspend on the name brand products and it's ok. The Twins made the right decision with Mauer. But that's just my red neck south dakotan opinion.

#30 daan4786

daan4786

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:11 PM

Matt Holiday is making 15million/year and has a better career (162 games total average) OPS than Mauer and much higher RBI. If you look at adjusted OPS+, you'll find he's between David Wright and David Ortiz, both making 14-15million/year. This is what Mauer is worth on the field, roughly. Is there an off the field dollar amount, sure, but let's at least parse the two separately, but there's also an off the field number or Ortiz, Holiday and Wright, no?


I think defense and offensive scarcity at the catcher position probably push his value up a little bit. I think he won a couple of gold gloves at a tougher position than Wright or Holliday or Ortiz.