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New Japanese Posting Rules?

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#1 darin617

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

I know they have not finalized any deal yet. The question I would answered is how many years must a player sign a contract for? If it would go worst team (Houston) a pitcher like Tanaka if forced to sign with the winning bid what would stop the player from saying "fine I will be an Astro but I will only sign a 1yr deal and become a free agent. Then the player could go to NY or LA where they want to be and get a huge deal.
They should also make it if let's say Houston posted $20M and won the rights to sign Tanaka they should have to surrender their 1st round pick in the up coming draft. So every team would move up 1 slot in the draft.

#2 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:25 PM

I think sacrificing a first round pick is unfair to losing teams. I like this proposed system but think the fee will likely need to be higher.

How about if the high bid can't get a deal done the next qualified team gets a shot at working out a deal, though they would be required to offer an average annual salary at least $15% higher than the first team did.

#3 ashburyjohn

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:01 PM

How about if the high bid can't get a deal done the next qualified team gets a shot at working out a deal, though they would be required to offer an average annual salary at least $15% higher than the first team did.


With that rule in place, why would the player ever accept the first offer?

#4 The Wise One

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:10 PM

If they come over as a free agent it is whatever they want. When they post it is the 6 years.

#5 johnnydakota

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:13 PM

Doesnt the new rules say If there is a tie the player can negociate with every team that bid the same amount? so the Rich get richer and the twins get , well we got our health

#6 darin617

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:09 PM

If they come over as a free agent it is whatever they want. When they post it is the 6 years.


I thought the Twins paid a posting on Nishi and his deal was not for 6 years.

#7 kab21

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:13 PM

With that rule in place, why would the player ever accept the first offer?


Because the next team might not offer +15%.

It will be interesting to see how the rules actually play out on this.

#8 Twins best friend

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:35 PM

Because the next team might not offer +15%.


Out of curiosity was there a reason behind choosing 15%? What would you think about the percentage increase of offer required being based off of the the number of wins separating teams rather than how many teams have had a chance?

It sounds like the idea of trying to help the losing/small market teams isn't doing well but it would be pretty neat.

#9 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:37 PM

MLBTR- "Under the latest proposal, while the maximum posting fee is $20MM, players appear to be free to sign with any team that ties for the highest bid, the Los Angeles Times' Bill Shaikin tweets. If that's the case, Yahoo!'s Jeff Passan points out, it will make Tanaka a de facto free agent, and he will likely receive a large contract."

#10 Dman

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:38 PM

MLBTR- "Under the latest proposal, while the maximum posting fee is $20MM, players appear to be free to sign with any team that ties for the highest bid, the Los Angeles Times' Bill Shaikin tweets. If that's the case, Yahoo!'s Jeff Passan points out, it will make Tanaka a de facto free agent, and he will likely receive a large contract."


i think that makes more sense. Then the player can get more of the money the money the player gets will count against payroll like any other contract. Yankees, dodgers etc will still have the upper hand but a mid market team could still take a shot if they felt it was a fairly sure thing and the player could choose to take less money if he wanted to play some particular place.

#11 pierre75275

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:46 PM

So....we could still get him. Technically....I would like it better if like only a certain number of teams could negociate no matter how many ponied up the winning bid. With some kind of lotto system based on winning %.

#12 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:14 PM

So....we could still get him. Technically....I would like it better if like only a certain number of teams could negociate no matter how many ponied up the winning bid. With some kind of lotto system based on winning %.


That's a little out in left field thinking...Just a little...

#13 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:03 PM

With that rule in place, why would the player ever accept the first offer?


Because 15% is a hefty raise and there's no promise he'd get a better deal.

#14 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:09 PM

Out of curiosity was there a reason behind choosing 15%? What would you think about the percentage increase of offer required being based off of the the number of wins separating teams rather than how many teams have had a chance?

It sounds like the idea of trying to help the losing/small market teams isn't doing well but it would be pretty neat.


Well I pulled it out of my butt. I figure it should be high enough that the players can't simply turn down a small market offer and run to the Yankees. I don't care too much how it works but I do think it shouldn't intentionally aid the big markets as this new deal seems to. It was just a random thought, I must confess I wasn't invited to the negotiating table for some reason.

#15 gunnarthor

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:36 AM

MLB and Japanese baseball came to an agreement on the posting system and basically every team that's willing to pony up 20m can try and sign Tanaka, essentially making it a bidding war and guaranteeing that the largest revenue clubs will get the best Japanese talent.

http://www.mlbtrader...ing-system.html

Edited by gunnarthor, 05 December 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#16 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:39 AM

I actually applaud this move. Spending $50m+ just to negotiate with a guy is absurd. Treat these players more like free agents... Or better yet, figure out a way to incorporate them into the draft or include them as international signing money.

#17 Willihammer

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:40 AM

Wow, sounds like NPB went to bat for their players. Top bid is capped at 20m and player gets to negotiate with all the winners.

http://www.mlbtrader...ing-system.html

#18 gunnarthor

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:49 AM

I actually applaud this move. Spending $50m+ just to negotiate with a guy is absurd. Treat these players more like free agents... Or better yet, figure out a way to incorporate them into the draft or include them as international signing money.


As a labor over management guy, I generally agree with you (esp with the idea of putting the players in some sort of draft). But this seemed to be an area where the Twins could have made relatively cheap upgrades by simply out scouting the competition. Now, that ability has been lessened. (And I know the Twins haven't done a great job scouting in NPB yet).

#19 spycake

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:51 AM

I hope I'm not nitpicking, but can we please stop using vague, generic thread titles? Unless the thread is intended to vague and generic, I suppose. Otherwise, moderators have my blessing to rename threads to their specific topics.

"Well, this sucks" could refer to any number of Twins-related topics right now. :)

#20 spycake

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:54 AM

As a labor over management guy, I generally agree with you (esp with the idea of putting the players in some sort of draft). But this seemed to be an area where the Twins could have made relatively cheap upgrades by simply out scouting the competition. Now, that ability has been lessened. (And I know the Twins haven't done a great job scouting in NPB yet).


The Twins weren't going to compete for Tanaka in the old system either. And they can still sign guys like Nishioka (hopefully better!) with no posting fee or a minimal one.

Not sure what the problem is?

#21 halfchest

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:55 AM

eh, I don't know how much affect it has. Sucks that if we negotiate we would have to fly him to Minnesota to negotiate in the winter.

Small side note: This is another reason Nishioka not working out kinda sucks. Had he worked out and been our starting SS or 2B right now we would have a nice guy to assist in getting other Japanese stars to sign here. Now it kinda looks like a black mark and the Japanese stars may blame his lack of success on the Twins, even if that's far from the truth.

#22 Siehbiscuit

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:03 AM

This is GREAT for small and mid-market teams. Teams that post the $20 million can make a run at Tanaka. The Twins have the budget, do they have the cajones???

#23 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:12 AM

Since the posting fee didn't count against the luxury tax, it gave "rich" teams a big advantage anyway -- especially on highly desirable Japanese stars. In some ways this actually evens the playing field by making it closer to other free agent situations.

While the Twins wanted to make headway in Japan with the Nishioka signing, I never saw the Japanese market (either as a "buyer" of talent or as a market for the team) as a particularly good fit. Seems like West Coast teams and big market teams like the Yankees and Red Sox always had a natural advantage.

The Twins are better off focusing their $$$ on other international markets. I like that they are seemingly more active than some other teams in Australia, for example, and hope that they are in Europe as well. I know that talent and development is sparser in those areas than in Japan but maybe the Twins can take advantage of ties they've developed.

#24 Thrylos

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:25 AM

I like the system... As a matter of fact it helps smaller revenue clubs because unlike the old system where the bulk of the money went to the posting fee and did not count towards the luxury tax, the bulk of money will go to player salary and will count towards the luxury tax. Also, the player, instead of the club and the Japanese League, will be getting the money.
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#25 pierre75275

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:32 AM

I still hope the twins pony up the cash to negotiate with tanaka. it wont cost a draft pick and who know what unproved talent might go for? i dont see the twins as a landing spot for him necessarily but it costs them nothing to post the maximum bid to negotiate...unless of course they sign him.

#26 zenser

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:32 AM

I like the system... As a matter of fact it helps smaller revenue clubs because unlike the old system where the bulk of the money went to the posting fee and did not count towards the luxury tax, the bulk of money will go to player salary and will count towards the luxury tax. Also, the player, instead of the club and the Japanese League, will be getting the money.


I like the premise behind the system too. I just wish they would have incorporated the ability to negotiate based on the reverse winning percentage that had been discussed. I would have guessed Houston or the Cubs to throw enough money at him to sign him. That would have been as close to a "draft" as you are going to get with the Japanese players.

#27 Smcginnity

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:56 AM

I like the premise behind the system too. I just wish they would have incorporated the ability to negotiate based on the reverse winning percentage that had been discussed. I would have guessed Houston or the Cubs to throw enough money at him to sign him. That would have been as close to a "draft" as you are going to get with the Japanese players.


I would have like them do something where it allows the first 5 teams (starting from lowest winning percentage) that were willing to pay the $20 million posting fee, negotiate with Tanaka. From there, he could choose between 5 teams. I think this still very much benefits the richest teams but, at least it's a step in the right direction. They REALLY need to get an international draft though. Until that is done, the league will always be top heavy. For a team like the Rangers to go get a guy like Yu Darvish because they can afford him or a team like the Dodgers to get Puig for the same reason, it's an unfair advantage. But, whatever...what do I know.

#28 notoriousgod71

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:15 AM

This is GREAT for small and mid-market teams. Teams that post the $20 million can make a run at Tanaka. The Twins have the budget, do they have the cajones???


I disagree. 20 million is a low enough figure that essentially every team can offer that for the posting fee, which in turn allows the player to negotiate with any team that matched that offer. This just turns him into a typical FA which is most likely to go to NYY, LA, etc like any of the other worthwhile FA.

I think it actually hurts small market teams, who might have been able to sneak through a surprise bid every now and again in the old system.

#29 Wookiee of the Year

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:28 AM

I'm basically exactly in agreement with thrylos--compared to the old system, this system seems worse for Japanese teams, better for Japanese players, and better for small-market teams (buy ensuring more of the overall value of a deal is subject to the luxury tax). And I generally like those changes. While I want to see NPB teams make some money off their players, the bidding war shouldn't happen in the value they extract from the deal, but in the value the player extracts.

I disagree. 20 million is a low enough figure that essentially every team can offer that for the posting fee, which in turn allows the player to negotiate with any team that matched that offer. This just turns him into a typical FA which is most likely to go to NYY, LA, etc like any of the other worthwhile FA.

I think it actually hurts small market teams, who might have been able to sneak through a surprise bid every now and again in the old system.

I just don't see how this can be true. Before, the team mostly likely to place the winning posting bid was NYY, LA, etc... like any of the other worthwhile FA. Now, with the bulk of the money subject to the luxury tax, teams like the NYY that are trying to stay under the cap are hurt. And even if they're not trying to stay under the cap, the money is redirected toward smaller-market teams through the cap.

I don't know why the math of Posting Fee + Contract would equal a larger amount than before. In fact, it has the potential to equal less than before because the rich bidders now have more of their total subject to the luxury tax, which makes each dollar cost more.

I like the premise behind the system too. I just wish they would have incorporated the ability to negotiate based on the reverse winning percentage that had been discussed. I would have guessed Houston or the Cubs to throw enough money at him to sign him. That would have been as close to a "draft" as you are going to get with the Japanese players.

I dunno... At some point, you're creating too much of an incentive for losing.

#30 Wookiee of the Year

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:38 AM

As a labor over management guy, I generally agree with you (esp with the idea of putting the players in some sort of draft). But this seemed to be an area where the Twins could have made relatively cheap upgrades by simply out scouting the competition. Now, that ability has been lessened. (And I know the Twins haven't done a great job scouting in NPB yet).

It's worth thinking about, but I'm not sure it does hurt scouting advantages... Anybody warranting a $20M posting fee is likely on every team's radar, anyway. And as far as I can tell, the landscape for placing posting fees under $20M is unchanged.