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LHP Pedro Hernandez signed with the Rockies

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#1 Thrylos

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:54 PM

Only Eduardo Escobar remains from the ill-advised Liriano trade now.
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#2 Jim H

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:12 PM

Explain to me again why the Twins should of kept a guy who was pitching poorly for them, continued to pitch poorly for the White Sox and wasn't likely to resign with the Twins anyway?

#3 Brad Swanson

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:12 PM

I'm honestly curious to hear from those who rip this Liriano trade - should the Twins have just kept Liriano or do you think a better deal was out there?

I can't seem to word this in a non-confrontational way and I need to go eat 50 wings, so I can't keep trying. Honestly curious.
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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:26 PM

There were a few of us who pushed the opinion last yr that the Twins should have done everything in their power to sign Liriano to an extension--while it still could have been done fairly cheaply--rather than shed talent for no gain.

This is an organization painfully short on pitching talent. It didn't take much forward thought to think dumping Liriano was a bad idea.

#5 Jim H

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:41 PM

You do remember how Liriano pitched since his TJ surgery, don't you? It possible that he finally past all that, but it more likely that 2013 was a blip, sort of like 2010 was. In any case I find it hard to fault the Twins for not matching or exceeding the 2 year $14 mill contract the Pirates originally offered Liriano last year. Hindsight, is always 20-20 vision.

#6 raindog

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:20 PM

I was all for getting some kind of value for Liriano before free agency. The Twins still could have resigned him, but they probably weren't willing to match the 2 yr, 14 mil contract. There were reports that he would have been open to returning.

I disagree with that decision, not the trade.

#7 gil4

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:12 PM

You do remember how Liriano pitched since his TJ surgery, don't you? It possible that he finally past all that, but it more likely that 2013 was a blip, sort of like 2010 was. In any case I find it hard to fault the Twins for not matching or exceeding the 2 year $14 mill contract the Pirates originally offered Liriano last year. Hindsight, is always 20-20 vision.


I don't know how open he was to returning, but players are usually a lot less open to returning after you trade them mid-season.

Last off-season someone asked if I would have given the 2 yr/$14 mil deal to Liriano and I said I would. I knew there was risk, but the potential upside is still higher than what we saw last year. He was a maddeningly inconsistent electric talent - I'd rather roll the dice with that than with consistent mediocrity.

I remember what he was like that first year and I didn't see anything that ruled out the possibility of a return to that level. I also liked the idea of Bobby Cuellar as the bullpen coach because I thought I remembered reading that he had he played a key role in the success of both Liriano and Santana, and his presence might have increased the likelihood of Liriano's re-signing.

#8 Seth Stohs

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:37 PM

I was all for getting some kind of value for Liriano before free agency. The Twins still could have resigned him, but they probably weren't willing to match the 2 yr, 14 mil contract. There were reports that he would have been open to returning.


Reports indicate that the Twins did make that exact same offer to Liriano. He chose to go elsewhere.

#9 zchrz

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:14 AM

I think Frankie was happy to go somewhere else. I doubt coaching means quite as much as it gets blamed for in most cases, but I really can't see Rick Anderson and Liriano as having ever had a real good working relationship.
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#10 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 07:09 AM

I don't get the consternation here. Even if Liriano had resigned here, I highly doubt that the season he had in 2013 would have been the one he had here. He needed a change of scenery.

That said, given the year he had and the fact that Escobar may actually have some sort of role with this team, I think the Twins won the deal.

#11 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 07:19 AM

If the trade was bad for the Twins, how bad was it for the White Sox? I mean they got absolutely nothing for Liriano.

#12 Boom Boom

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:05 AM

If the trade was bad for the Twins, how bad was it for the White Sox? I mean they got absolutely nothing for Liriano.


Not that bad. They took a chance on Liriano and gave up virtually nothing to get him.

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:18 AM

You do remember how Liriano pitched since his TJ surgery, don't you? It possible that he finally past all that, but it more likely that 2013 was a blip, sort of like 2010 was. In any case I find it hard to fault the Twins for not matching or exceeding the 2 year $14 mill contract the Pirates originally offered Liriano last year. Hindsight, is always 20-20 vision.

Calling for the Twins to sign Liriano to an extension rather than trading him, then pointing out later what you advocated, isn't hindsight.

Many people are in favor of "buy low, sell high," until its time to actually put that theory into practice. I felt Liriano was an excellent "buy low" candidate, worthy of a cheap-ish 3 or 4 yr contract last spring/ summer. Certainly a better candidate than some of the pitchers being discussed for similar gambles right now. His results weren't there, but talent was. In addition to being a "buy low sell high" guy, I'm a firm believer that gambling on talent is a much better strategy than gambling on mediocrity. There was a chance Liriano turns in a season like he did. There is almost zero chance players like Escobar/Hernandez ever make any real difference.

#14 TheLeviathan

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:30 AM

Let me know when Liriano shows he's worthy of a long-term investment. Would anybody be shocked if he went out and spent the two months before he gets demoted next year digging the Pirates into a hole every time he pitches? He had a great year for us in 2010 as well, then proceeded to be arguably the worst starter in the American League for about a season and a half.

So, if he implodes next year I wouldn't be shocked at all. I was tired of the inconsistency. I don't blame the Twins for being the same and it making them gun-shy to outbid anyone. I can't blame the Twins on him at all.

#15 Jim H

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:00 AM

I understand the talent part concerning Liriano and Garza for that matter. But the real fact is that the only thing Liriano has done better(since his TJ surgery) in his career, than say a mediorce talent like Correia, is strike people out. And that doesn't/hasn't translated to be being more effective.

I personally feel the Twins deserve more blame for the way they handled Kyle Loisch than Liriano. There was clearly a good pitcher hiding in Loisch, to this point, I don't think we can say that about Liriano. That despite the fact that Liriano can be much more dominating for stretches than Loisch ever was.

So yeah, I don't begrudge the Twins not resigning Liriano. There were certainly those who wanted to resign Lliriano. Some wanted the Twins to sign Liriano to a long term contract after the 2010 season. Given how he pitched in 2011-2012, that would have looked silly. Right now, a 2 year contract during the last offseason for $14 million looks pretty good. Unfortunately, pitchers are so inconsistent due to injuries and other factors, that almost any long term contract and most short term ones, can look pretty good or darn bad depending at what point you are looking at it.

#16 goulik

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:05 AM

I saw the trade as the Twins trying to get something for him before we lost him and ended up with what the White Sox have now. I do not think we had any chance of resigning him. If that is true we traded Nothing for something.

#17 goulik

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:07 AM

On a separate note, I'd hoped the Twins would put Hernandez on the 40 man and hone a 2-3 inning set up man out of him. Bummed he's gone.

#18 Rosterman

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:18 AM

I think Frankie was happy to go somewhere else. I doubt coaching means quite as much as it gets blamed for in most cases, but I really can't see Rick Anderson and Liriano as having ever had a real good working relationship.


I truly doubt that Frankie would've resigned with the Twins. By letting him go to the White Sox, the Twins took the gamble that he wouldn't shine and would be a viable candidate for resigning, not having to make him a qualifying offer if you really wanted to keep him, and getting something, anything in return.

The Twins were rumored to have at least contacted Frankie. Who knows what lowball offer they made. The Pirates literally blew everyone away with their offer, which was lowered because of the off-season injury, but it was 2-years and Frankie (and his agent) didn't look a gift-horse in the mouth, so to speak. Frankie now has to be brilliant in 2014 and he will have a bigtime payday.

I really don't think Frankie would resign with the Twins anyways. There was a little bad blood during the arbitration timeline. I don't think he always agreed with the way the Twins wanted him to pitch. A new place can be just as good as an old place if you truly aren't happy. And the Twins weren't going anywheres and it reflected in his stats with the team.

The Twins got something for Frankie. Wished Pedro had been more consistent and be the back-of-the-rotation guy. Yes, like others, thought he could replace Duensing in the bullpen...if the Twins had moved Duensing. Escobar is a decent role player.

Considering that I would predict that Frankie was 98% sure of walking at the end of the season anyway, something was better than absolutely nothing, plus he didn't help the White Sox at all.
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#19 raindog

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

Reports indicate that the Twins did make that exact same offer to Liriano. He chose to go elsewhere.

Ah, I misremembered.

Honestly, the more I think about it, Liriano wouldn't have had as good of a year here. They would have still told him to keep pumping fastballs instead of mostly sliders.

#20 Brandon

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:41 AM

If I remember correctly the Twins were trying to get Liriano to throw the Slider less and fastball more to protect the elbow and Liriano's future. I think this year Liriano went back to throwing the slider more. If I were the Pirates I would watch his innings if your going to let him pitch that way. Its only a matter of time before he gets hurt again. I think Liriano is hoping to get one more big contract before that happens. But obviously the risks are far greater with the higher Slider load.

#21 spycake

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:00 PM

Liriano certainly had upside -- 2010 was very good -- but 2011-2012 he was really quite bad. I mean, in terms of starts/innings/effectiveness, Liriano was for those two years basically Pelfrey 2013, which wasn't all that pretty. And 2009 was another season just like that.

And unfortunately, even if the Twins had got him back for 2/14, I am doubtful that we could have coaxed those same results out of him. The Pirates staff was great last year, even with some unlikely performers. I'm not necessarily blaming Anderson, but outside of Diamond's flukey 2012, it's been awhile since we've seen a starting pitcher turn things around or exceed expectations in Minnesota.

#22 spycake

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:07 PM

Big criticism of the Liriano deal: why get two marginal 40-man roster guys? Maybe the Butera trade has thrown off our expectations, but if you're so far from contention that you won't even bother signing quality free agents, I think it would have been better to get a low minors guy when you are dumping MLB salary. Two 40-man fillers for Morneau is a little more understandable, given his salary and waiver considerations, but Liriano was inexpensive and it was only July.

#23 70charger

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:50 PM

Big criticism of the Liriano deal: why get two marginal 40-man roster guys? Maybe the Butera trade has thrown off our expectations, but if you're so far from contention that you won't even bother signing quality free agents, I think it would have been better to get a low minors guy when you are dumping MLB salary. Two 40-man fillers for Morneau is a little more understandable, given his salary and waiver considerations, but Liriano was inexpensive and it was only July.


This is pretty much the ONLY criticism I think is reasonable about the Liriano deal. He was a terrible pitcher, he will be again soon, he was walking anyway, he didn't want to resign with the Twins, and literally the only thing to be done was to get something for him. You can argue that that something should have been something else, but I'm completely okay with how it went down. This trade was the furthest thing from ill-advised.

#24 kab21

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 06:41 PM

It should have been painfully obvious that Liriano needed a change of scenery. He was quite talented but there was considerable friction between Liriano and the staff and I don't we would have seen that great season (2013) if he had stayed with the Twins. It would have just been another painful season of watching a talented pitcher underperform.

This is the type of pitcher that the Twins should be looking for this offseason. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery to get back on track.

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 07:19 PM

It's ok to admit it was a poor decision to trade him for nothing before at least exploring an extension. It was.

Just like its ok to look back on the Hardy deal, releasing Ortiz, and other ill advised personnel moves made, in the hopes that maybe they'll not be repeated.

#26 TheLeviathan

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:04 PM

I think far too often we assume that a player's performance one year would've been the same regardless of where he played. It's too hypothetical to be said with certainty.

#27 nicksaviking

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:51 AM

I'm honestly curious to hear from those who rip this Liriano trade - should the Twins have just kept Liriano or do you think a better deal was out there?

I can't seem to word this in a non-confrontational way and I need to go eat 50 wings, so I can't keep trying. Honestly curious.


I've said it a bunch, but the biggest issue with the trade was that the Twins ridiculously took on two guys who required 40 man roster spots. They gave up one roster spot and took on two. For a clearly rebuilding team it was a terrible decision considering both Hernandez and Escobar were among the five worst players on the 40 man. It made no sense. Surely they could have gotten someone that would not have required a roster decision but the front office was adamant that the team was not rebuilding and they needed pieces that could help right away.

Reports indicate that the Twins did make that exact same offer to Liriano. He chose to go elsewhere.


I think that's news to many of us, do you have a link to that? I don't recall that at all last off season.

Edited by nicksaviking, 17 November 2013 - 01:53 AM.


#28 Thrylos

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:50 AM

It's ok to admit it was a poor decision to trade him for nothing before at least exploring an extension. It was.

Just like its ok to look back on the Hardy deal, releasing Ortiz, and other ill advised personnel moves made, in the hopes that maybe they'll not be repeated.



Totally agree, but for some reason, for some people Ryan, Gardenhire and Anderson & Co can do nothing wrong. And I don't know a single other organization in baseball that would have kept any of the three after the 99+96+96 in a row.
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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:17 AM

I think far too often we assume that a player's performance one year would've been the same regardless of where he played. It's too hypothetical to be said with certainty.

That theory didnt seem to apply in the Ortiz thread.

#30 beckmt

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:26 AM

If Liriano keeps throwing sliders, he is a major candidate for another arm injury. Escobar may turn out to be an OK utility player, getting something was better than nothing because Liriano was not coming back here. It was the Hardy trade(Bill Smith and perhaps Gardy not likely him) that made no sense.