Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

The Store

Photo

Robinson Cano

  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,810 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:23 PM

I know Jim Pohlad has publicly ruled out contracts over 4 years, and I realize the prospect of the Twins signing Cano has been pre-emptively mocked by a certain TD blogger (cough Swanson cough), but there are compelling reasons the Twins should pursue him.

* Twins have the need
* Cano's really really good
* Cano's healthy
* Denial value
* Top 10 pick going into 2014 (protected)
* weak market

Cashman has waffled publicly. Magic Johnson has excluded the Dodgers publicly. Rangers are "interested" but have middle infielders coming out their ears. Phillies are set. Boston is mostly set. LA is expected to prioritize pitching. Forget 10/300. I think there could be a real opening for a middle-tier club like the Twins to steal the premier FA for a 6 year commitment, a la 2011 Adrian Beltre.

#2 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,451 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:41 PM

I can't see Cano going anywhere but the Yankees. The fallout from missing the playoffs and then losing Cano would just be too much for the Steinbrenners to handle, I think.

#3 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,248 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

Yankees or Tigers, I'd guess. Of course, you can never rule out the Angels doing something stupid under the radar! :)

#4 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,632 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

Even though long term deals get panned by everyone the second they are signed, I still think Cano gets an 8 year deal. Down from the 10 years he is requesting, but still enough that he get's one of the elite contracts.

#5 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:03 PM

No chance at all we get Cano...
Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

#6 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,810 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

Yankees or Tigers, I'd guess. Of course, you can never rule out the Angels doing something stupid under the radar! :)


If the Yankees want him more than they're letting on, I don't think any team can stop them.

If they are serious about getting under the cap and staying there though, then the Twins have to stop Detroit signing him or this whole rebuild is for naught.

#7 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 5,786 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:19 PM

Not what I would do with the money. For that money, I'd rather go after Tanaka or Ellsbury.
Lighten up Francis....

#8 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,248 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:22 PM

If the Yankees want him more than they're letting on, I don't think any team can stop them.

If they are serious about getting under the cap and staying there though, then the Twins have to stop Detroit signing him or this whole rebuild is for naught.


I'm not sure a second baseman is going to make that big of a difference.

#9 Siehbiscuit

Siehbiscuit

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 305 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

NO to Cano! He's a GREAT player, but NO. Tying up money that should be used on anything but pitching is a mistake.

#10 Brandon

Brandon

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 759 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:14 PM

i dont think the twins should do too much this offseason. sign 2 starting pitchers and a SS to compete with Florimon who could also play 3rd would be nice and maybe a 1B then wait to see which prospects are developing and go from there.

#11 mnfireman

mnfireman

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

Let Texas sign him and try to work a deal for Andrus or Profar! :D

#12 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 8,860 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks

Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:31 PM

Cano will get paid by someone. The TV money may drive prices up a tish. I would not rule out the Dodgers... Especially if they don't win the WS. The Yankees will be competitive with any offer made by other teams... No matter how they are acting now.

The Twins have no chance. Even if they did have a chance. It would drain the money Pohlad kinda promised we would spend. I assume that money ain't endless and we need pitching.
A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

#13 Danchat

Danchat

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 440 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:17 PM

No, no, no, and.... no. If we are going to spend 150M on a player (which there's a 100% chance we won't) it would have to be on a pitcher. I know our hitting is seriously bad but there is help on the way. There is no help coming for our pitching staff.

I just hope the teams in contention get together and drive the price down. Will any team ever learn from these bad 100M+ deals?

#14 SpiritofVodkaDave

SpiritofVodkaDave

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,020 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:11 PM

No. Cano is going to get at least 200 million. There is zero reason to bring him in and tie up 45+ mil a year in two players for the better part of the next 6 or 7 years.

The Dodgers or Yankees will bring him in.

#15 Oxtung

Oxtung

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,430 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:10 PM

No, no, no, and.... no. If we are going to spend 150M on a player (which there's a 100% chance we won't) it would have to be on a pitcher. I know our hitting is seriously bad but there is help on the way. There is no help coming for our pitching staff.

I just hope the teams in contention get together and drive the price down. Will any team ever learn from these bad 100M+ deals?


I'm sure that the Giants are hating their Matt Cain contract while celebrating the World Series. The Tigers made it to the World Series based largely on the play of Verlander, Fielder and Cabrera. The Cardinals had Matt Holiday, Albert Pujols and Carpenter (which would have been a $100MM contract if it wasn't signed in 2007). The 2010 Rangers had Beltre and Kinsler. The 2009 Champion Yankees had several large contracts but I'm sure everyone is aware of that. The Phillies had Chase Utley.

In the last 5 years the only team that made the World Series and didn't have one of those huge contracts was the '08 Rays. I'd say that teams are learning. Elite players cost money and years. If you want to make the World Series you need elite players.

So at the end of the day some of these contracts might be terrible and some teams are going to be dragged down because of it but if you don't play, you can't win.

#16 Oxtung

Oxtung

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,430 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

No. Cano is going to get at least 200 million. There is zero reason to bring him in and tie up 45+ mil a year in two players for the better part of the next 6 or 7 years.

The Dodgers or Yankees will bring him in.


Mauer only has 5 years left on his deal.

#17 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 3,487 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:22 AM

I vote NO as well.

If the Twins are going to spend in the realm of $20 million on a single player (in addition to Mauer), it has to be a pitcher. I also believe that they need to add a vocal clubhouse leader (have to figure out what position that would be at based on availabilty/need) but I think that is going to have to be a lower tier ($10-$15 m).

Please note that I am not saying that they can find a FA pitcher worth $20m or more in this off-season just that if they are going to spend big money, that's where it has to be.

The Twins' spending is horribly unbalanced, we all know that. In 2013, Mauer's contract takes up about 28% of the payroll. At its lowest percentage (2011), Mauer's "new" contract still took up over 20% of the payroll.

Take a look at this year's playoff teams and their largest current contract in relation to their total opening day payroll:

Cards: Holliday -- just under 15%
Tigers: Prince -- 16.5%
Dodgers: A Gonzales -- 10.15%
Boston: Lackey -- 10%

Indians: Swisher -- 20.15%
Pittsburgh: Burnett -- 24.6%
Rays: Price -- 16.5%
Reds: Votto -- 11.85% (will go up substantially next year but probably still won't be over 20% given the new TV revenues).

The only one of those playoff contenders who devoted more than 20% to a position player was the Indians. The big spenders had the ability to spread their money around enough that their highest players weren't taking up more than 20% of their payroll.

Even if the Twins increase their payroll back to 2011 levels (I don't really see that happening even with the new TV $$$), it would be a huge mistake to tie up another 20% or more in another position player.

#18 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:36 AM

In the case of Boston, Dodgers and Tigers, those percentages would get a lot higher if they lower their payroll down to where ours is...even the Cards. But then you also need to look at the #2 and #3 paid players on their teams and see their percentages...

Mauer's contract isn't hurting us...we need to get off that myth.
Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

#19 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 3,487 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:05 AM

In the case of Boston, Dodgers and Tigers, those percentages would get a lot higher if they lower their payroll down to where ours is...even the Cards.


That's irrelevant because in fact they HAVE the higher payrolls.

The Cards are a bit of a different example because their payroll is in the same tier ($116-$117m) as where the Twins could be.

But they actually provide a pretty good example for the Twins. Holliday's contract is at less than 15% and although they made a strong bid for Pujols, they put on the brakes.

The point is that the Twins have a bunch of payroll tied up in ONE position player. They really can't afford to tie up another big chunk in another one as attractive as Cano may be.

#20 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,810 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:30 AM

I'm not sure a second baseman is going to make that big of a difference.


The Cardinals and Red Sox might disagree.

Look at what the Tigers have done in FA since 2010.

2010 offseason: VMart
2011: Prince
2012: Anibal
2013: Cano?

I don't think any rebuild can keep pace with a rival who signs a top FA per offseason.

If the Tigers become suitors for Cano, and get him, that could easily push back the Twins window to 2020 or later.

#21 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 3,487 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:40 AM

The Cardinals and Red Sox might disagree.

Look at what the Tigers have done in FA since 2010.

2010 offseason: VMart
2011: Prince
2012: Anibal
2013: Cano?

I don't think any rebuild can keep pace with a rival who signs a top FA per offseason.

If the Tigers become suitors for Cano, and get him, that could easily push back the Twins window to 2020 or later.


Mike Illitch won't live forever (although it may seem like some of the contracts signed under his ownership may last that long).

There have been articles floating around that the Tigers may see some retrenchment over the next few years.

It would be a mistake for the Twins to spend huge money just to keep the Tigers from getting Cano.

The Twins need to focus their money on how to improve the Twins.

#22 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 4,464 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:41 AM

If the Twins want to spend that kind of money, go out and get Tanaka AND Abreau. I like Cano, but 2B is not nearly the pressing need that SP or a good mashing 1B is.

#23 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,632 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:43 AM

Jeter has been good, but I don't trust most middle infielder to age well. He's been extremely durable, but that also means he's played in a lot of games, and he's going to be 31 next week. I think if you're lucky you'll end up getting what you pay for the first 3 years, but then you're going to be on the hook for five more after that.

I have a feeling that [(Cano + gray hairs) - Yankee Stadium] = (early peak + quick decline).

#24 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:57 AM

That's irrelevant because in fact they HAVE the higher payrolls.


Exactly...that was my whole point...the percentage of payroll for their highest paid player is irrelevant compared to percentage of payroll for our highest paid player. Those teams are on a different spending level, so why even mention them in the first place to make your point? How about instead of looking at the top paid player percentage of payroll, look at top 3 players and the total percentage of payroll? Cause our top paid guy makes 23, then our next guy makes 7 then our next guy makes around 5. That could be like 33% of what payroll should be.

On a side note, I wonder how incoming revenue (affecting available payroll) would be affected if Mauer hadn't signed here? I wonder how much of his salary is paid by the fact he's on the team...in tickets sales (and corresponding parking, concessions), merchandise, etc?

BTW, I'm not in the sign Cano lane...I'm way away from that lane.
Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

#25 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,810 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:06 AM

It would be a mistake for the Twins to spend huge money just to keep the Tigers from getting Cano.


Its only a mistake if you think Cano is a poor player. Obviously he's not, he's a terrific player.

If Cano is only worth 18 WARs over the next 6 years (he could easily be worth that many in the next 3), that is a +6 WAR swing in favor of the team that gets him, if the two suitors share a division. That's huge.

The Twins should absolutely factor the other FA suitors into their decisionmaking.

#26 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,632 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:12 AM

If the Tigers become suitors for Cano, and get him, that could easily push back the Twins window to 2020 or later.


I think it may be just the opposite, after all, the guys they are signing are already at their peak. In four years the Tigers would be the 2013 Yankees. They'd have huge unmovable contracts on five 34-35 year-olds who will undoubtedly be on the decline. And with those body types, a 35-year-old Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera might be a scary proposition.

#27 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,810 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:31 AM

I think it may be just the opposite, after all, the guys they are signing are already at their peak. In four years the Tigers would be the 2013 Yankees. They'd have huge unmovable contracts on five 34-35 year-olds who will undoubtedly be on the decline. And with those body types, a 35-year-old Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera might be a scary proposition.


Question: What if Illitch doesn't die?

#28 kab21

kab21

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,317 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:07 AM

This would be a more interesting hypothetical in 2-3 years when the Twins at least the structure of a playoff team in place. Cano would make the team better but there are holes literally everywhere on the team and they are mostly filled with terrible players. There's only so much one player can do and then he's 35ish and headed to a long, expensive decline. I will predict a 9 yr 225M contract.

Of course I'm an optimist that several of Arcia, Sano, Buxton, Rosario and Meyer can become avg or better players (and one or two studs) in a couple of seasons and the Twins will find a few other avg or better players in FA. And continue to have a strong system to continue feeding the Twins. At that point you are only filling a couple of holes and dropping big money could put the team over the top.

If I was spending insane money (for the Twins) it would be 100ish/6yrs (includes posting fee) on 24 yr old Tanaka and go after a Nick Swisher type signing to take some pressure off of the prospects when called up.

#29 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

Question: What if Illitch doesn't die?


Mike Ilitch of the Clan Ilitch? :-)
Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

#30 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 3,487 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:22 AM

Question: What if Illitch doesn't die?


Then they'll continue to spend $184m (or more with next year's added TV $$$) trying to win a championship for an Octogenarian.

They have money coming off the books after this year (Peralta, Benoit, Infante) and next year (VMart, Torii) and they'll have some needs to fill so I could see them going after Cano.

They'll also have about $90m tied up in Prince, Verlander, Miggy and Sanchez through 2015 (the end of Miggy's contract) which still leaves them a generous amount for other parts (although Scherzer, Fister and Porcello will continue to get more expensive).

Financially the Twins can't compete with the Tigers (even without their added incentive to win a World Series for Illitch).

But the Twins still have to do what most improves the Twins. There's no use adding someone like Cano at this point because there are just too many other needs on this team.