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The 2012 "Complain About Gardy" Thread

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#1 John Bonnes

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:24 AM

It's one of the great baseball pasttimes: complaining about the manager. So let's use this as our Festivus Airing Of Grievances as the year rolls on. Since the season hasn't really started yet, I'll kick things off with a simple question (I think by TwinsDaily member Kirsten Brown) that Aaron and I addressed on a podcast a few weeks back: "If you could have Ron Gardenhire changes any ONE THING about how he manages, what would it be?"

#2 Thrylos

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:31 AM

ONE thing? Does retiring count? I think if I had to chose ONE thing, it would be not to give away outs by playing small ball and trying to move runners up. The scoring probability of a runner on 1st with 1 out is higher than that of one on 2nd and 2 outs...
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#3 powrwrap

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:31 AM

Just one thing? Darn, OK. Gardy has a propensity to leave a pitcher in the game too long. He's too slow to pull a pitcher, which oftentimes causes the game to get out of reach.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

#4 gunnarthor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:33 AM

It's one of the great baseball pasttimes: complaining about the manager. So let's use this as our Festivus Airing Of Grievances as the year rolls on. Since the season hasn't really started yet, I'll kick things off with a simple question (I think by TwinsDaily member Kirsten Brown) that Aaron and I addressed on a podcast a few weeks back:

"If you could have Ron Gardenhire changes any ONE THING about how he manages, what would it be?"


I don't know if this is actually a good strategy or not but it seems whenever we have guys on 1st and 3rd, and especially when the guy on first is Span or Casilla, he should have them steal second. But it seems we never do that. Maybe that's the smart thing to do, I don't know. But he talks about wanting speed, that seems like a time to use it and put pressure on the defense. (Figured this was more fun to complain about than his bunting strategies or a discussion of who should be batting second).

#5 mike wants wins

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:41 AM

Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.
Lighten up Francis....

#6 minn55441

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:41 AM

I like Gardy as a manager, but I still have frustrations. He tends to give all of the starters the same day off. A day game after a night game has turned into "starters take the day off game". I wish he would plan things out better. Rest Mauer one day, Span the next etc. Instead of his current rotation of sitting everyone the same game.

#7 mike wants wins

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:47 AM

minn55441, that's an interesting question. Are they better off "losing" with a really weak team 1 time a week or so, or having a weaker team all throughout the week by resting starters say, three times a week? I don't know the answer to that question.
Lighten up Francis....

#8 TwinsFanLV

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:48 AM

Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.


Respectively disagree. Baseball is situational. There are examples in any inning where a sacrifice is correct. It depends on several factors, the most important of which is the score. You only need to win by ONE run. I've never heard any of these stat geeks acknowledge that simple fact. Everything about baseball strategy works out better when your team is AHEAD. Get ahead, then grind it out. You don't need three run homers to grind it out.

#9 sln477

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:50 AM

I am definitely in the minority when it comes to what is affectionately known as "Gardy bashing" when it comes to Twins fans. I wouldn't change a thing about his managing. I do disagree from time to time about certain strategies, but I trust in his instincts. I view the front office the same way, even though I don't always agree with what transpires. These people are hired by the owners to get the job done & thus have placed their trust & faith in them to get same job done. I am now bound by that faith & trust that these people will get the job done. It doesn't always work out, bad decisions are made, mistakes magnified, & the end result is less than satisfactory. These folks have a very difficult job to do & I applaud them in their efforts. I, along with most, are quick to blurt out our opinions about how we would change things, but it isn't always that simple. I guess that's why we don't have these coveted jobs in the Twins organization. GO TWINS!!!

#10 gunnarthor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:52 AM

Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.


Gardy gets too much crap about bunting. Guess which team had more sac bunts last year- Twins or Yanks? (Yanks). Gardner (OBP .345) and Casilla (OBP .322) led both teams w/8, which makes sense since both can bunt for a hit and if they fail it goes down as a sac bunt. After that, the best on-base guy Gardy used to bunt was Revere (.310 OBP and pretty fast). Then it was a bunch of sub-.300 OBP guys - Butera, Nishi, Tolbert, Plouffe etc. Basically, automatic outs. Granderson, who hit 41 homers, had as many sac bunts as Tolbert.

#11 powrwrap

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:15 AM

Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.


Gotta disagree with this as well. The situation dictates the strategy. For example: Tie game or down by one run in an away ballpark, 6th inning, no outs. Casilla's on 2nd, Span's on 1st. Carroll coming up to bat with Mauer on deck, Morneau in the hole. I'm bunting. Think about it. In fact, I would criticize Gardy for NOT bunting in this situation.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

#12 twinzgrl

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:38 AM

Coaching a major league baseball team is very difficult. We, as fans, applaud management when things go right, and rip them when it doesn't. Part of the game. Does Gardy make mistakes sometimes? Of course. But, hindsight is always 20/20...GOOD LUCK Gardy, and GO TWINS!

#13 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:45 AM

Stop babying your players! Stop being intimidated by teams in the AL East and West! Career record vs Yankees is 20-65! He has set the organization back 10 years. Completely responsible for last years debacle. He has had the most talented players in Twins history and can't even win ONE playoff game Take your pick.

Edited by Fanatic Jack, 02 April 2012 - 10:55 AM.


#14 okobojicat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

Respectively disagree. Baseball is situational. There are examples in any inning where a sacrifice is correct. It depends on several factors, the most important of which is the score. You only need to win by ONE run. I've never heard any of these stat geeks acknowledge that simple fact. Everything about baseball strategy works out better when your team is AHEAD. Get ahead, then grind it out. You don't need three run homers to grind it out.


Actually a lot of stat guys (like myself) will acknowledge that you only have to win by one. But by giving outs away (such as bunting) you reduce your chances of scoring 1 run or 3 runs.

Let's say you're down 1 run in the bottom of the 6th inning. 1 out, guy on first. Parmalee is up. Do you bunt? How about Span or Revere? No. Moving the guy to 2nd base with 2-outs reduces your chances of scoring 1 run, 2 runs, or any amount of runs. Basically, in order to regularly justify bunting, you must have someone that is offensively inept as Butera. Otherwise, it almost never makes sense.

#15 zenser

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:55 AM

I hate the fact the he wont split up the lefties in the lineup. In the past it has been Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, Cuddyer, Young. Why not put Cuddyer in between Morneau and Kubel. He makes easy to manage against when you do that.

#16 Nick Nelson

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

I think it's pretty rare that Gardy (or any manager) orders a sacrifice bunt with one out.

#17 @_2244

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:04 AM

Baseball is a slow, plodding, methodical game. It's such a slow moving game that I can see how people who don't understand the strategery of the game don't really see much appeal to baseball. "Managing along from home" is one of my favorite things to do as the course of a game unfolds. All of these things factor into baseball being the Grand Game of Hindsight.

I have no problem with people challenging the manager's decisions. I think most of us do that to a certain degree, and it's one of the things that makes the game most interesting to me. When time allows me to follow the game-day threads, I am looking forward to see which of the esteemed posters question Gardy's moves before the outcome has been realized. Will be interesting to see which posters sit on their hands until it clearly becomes evident things didn't work out as planned and then bash the manager.

#18 woolhouse

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:12 AM

I'd like for him to throw every player under-the-bus when they make a mistake, not just the ones that are either rookies or not one of his boys. It seemed like- if you listened to soundbytes of him complaining about the players he had- 2011 was all Danny Valencia's fault. I can't recall him saying anything about the $180-million catcher not being able to catch, or the other 3 catchers not even hitting their weights. Pavano didn't get mentioned once for having an ERA north of 5; and Nathan and Capps were both "getting at it." But Valencia's slow-footed-to-the-right range most have cost us 30 wins last year.

#19 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:21 AM

I'm surprised no one has talked about his pen management... leave your guy out there for an inning or two, not to throw 5 pitches to 1 batter. The pen would be much better off for that long term.

#20 tobynotjason

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

Brain transplant.

Seriously, I'm not sure whether it would lineup-by-position (i.e. weak hitters in the most important [#2] slot in the order) or PREDICTABLE early [1st inning] sac bunting.

Mikewantswins analysis of the sac bunt is wrong inasmuch as there's a difference between run expectation in PAs in which a sac bunt is attempted and run expectation in PAs in which a sac bunt "succeeds". (It doesn't always go down in the former case like it does in the latter, given errors, base hits, hits when the bunt is taken off with 2 strikes, etc.)

But with Gardenhire, he's so by-the-numbers other teams clearly expect the bunt, position (or at least mentally dispose) their infielders accordingly and thereby make most of his sac bunts attempts far worse than an "average" sac attempt. If he'd change it up, bunt a LOT less for a while (to change expectations), then be less predictable (including crucially: be willing to take a sacrifice OFF and hit away in a 1-0 count, put it back after it goes 1-1, encourage tweener bunts that could lead to base hits when the bunters is good/fast etc.) he'd be a much improved, less frustrating in-game manager for it.

#21 Kirsten Brown

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

Well, since it's my question, I suppose I should add my 2ยข. Generally, I like Gardy and how he manages. However, if I were to ask him to change something, I'd ask that he'd forget about "pitcher wins." It bugs me when he pulls a starting pitcher in the 6th inning as soon as a go-ahead run gets to the plate, seemingly with the mindset of "you might not win this game, but now you won't lose it." Let him clean up his own mess, and pull him when he really begins to stink. Although, this issue is pretty much baseball-wide. I'd still like to see Gardy buck this tradition.

#22 @_2244

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:02 PM

Stop babying your players! Stop being intimidated by teams in the AL East and West! Career record vs Yankees is 20-65! He has set the organization back 10 years. Completely responsible for last years debacle. He has had the most talented players in Twins history and can't even win ONE playoff game Take your pick.


Okay, so you've stated you're anti-Gardy, and you've listed some reasons why. Now I'm curious to see who you'd rather have manage this club and your reasons why.

#23 ericchri

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:10 PM

My least favorite thing in baseball... Don't play to pad your closer's save numbers. Outside of a being a good talking stat, it's pretty hard to claim that getting only 3 outs with a 3-run lead somehow proves you "saved" the game. I swear, anybody could save 35 games for the Twins the way he manages. Last year notwithstanding due to everyone being injured. It's infected all of baseball at this point, but wouldn't it be nice to see him put in his closer (theoretically his best relief pitcher, we'll see if that's the case) in the 8th inning to face the other teams 2-4 hitters with a 1-run lead, and let someone else worry about the ninth when the weaker hitters are coming to bat?

#24 jharaldson

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:12 PM

Stop using the definition of a "save" as the rule for putting in your closer. There are extremely good offensive teams I would want our closer in when we have a 4-5 run lead and really crappy teams where we don't need to burn them when we have a 2-3 run lead.

#25 luckylager

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:31 PM

Two things I would ask Gardy to reconsider: 100 pitch limit and the Tart Cherry Concentrate commercials.

#26 UCLA_YANKEE_COLA

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

I think the actual effect any manager has on W/L's is so freaking miniscule that the Twins would win or lose the same amount of games if it were Gardy, Connie Mack, Earl Weaver or Trey Hillman. The one thing I'd change, as mentioned above, is a nearly universal problem and that's pitching to the save rule. Use your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. It's so simple it's like telling someone not to open their doors and windows when you turn on you heat in the winter but managers just don't get it.

#27 itstimetotakeit

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:50 PM

how can someone defend the loon that is gardenchoke? he hasn't won a playoff serious in over a decade can't manage a bullpen to save his fatass and cherishes his hard working scrappy players that always suck. he's a joke of a manager and needs to be gone of this club this year

#28 Shane Wahl

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:07 PM

Actually a lot of stat guys (like myself) will acknowledge that you only have to win by one. But by giving outs away (such as bunting) you reduce your chances of scoring 1 run or 3 runs.

Let's say you're down 1 run in the bottom of the 6th inning. 1 out, guy on first. Parmalee is up. Do you bunt? How about Span or Revere? No. Moving the guy to 2nd base with 2-outs reduces your chances of scoring 1 run, 2 runs, or any amount of runs. Basically, in order to regularly justify bunting, you must have someone that is offensively inept as Butera. Otherwise, it almost never makes sense.


To be fair, I really doubt Gardenhire has chosen to sac bunt very often with one out. I would limit bunting to almost only those situations where there is nobody out and a guy on second or a guy on second and first. And the suicide squeeze sometimes.

#29 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:24 PM

Use your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. It's so simple it's like telling someone not to open their doors and windows when you turn on you heat in the winter but managers just don't get it.


So simple that dozens--hundreds even--of major league managers can't learn to manage the bullpen to your satisfaction.

One might draw the conclusion that it's not quite so simple as you think from the comfort of your living room chair.

#30 BHtwins

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:40 PM

From an "x's and o's" standpoint, from the time the lineup card is written until the end of the game, there isnt probably 2 wins difference between the decisions the AL manager of the year makes and what the worst record manager in rookie ball makes. All baseball guys make the same decisions and most of them if not meaningless are all but. Take out pitching changes and every other in-game decision an AL manager makes is basically window dressing. I put baseball managers in the same category as college football coaches. Meaning, they are basically recruiters and motivators mostly. Saying that, I'd suspect Gardy is probably a relatively good motivator given his career record. Which is a good thing because his batting orders and line-up cards are probably the single biggest weak point he has and has probably cost him at least one division title. So most annoying thing. Someone needs to tell Gardy that he doesnt have to bat a speedy outfielder or a middle fielder 1 or 2. There is no rule in baseball that would prevent him from batting someone like....say a catcher...with a really high OBP in the number 2 slot and then just leave him there all season long. Number 2 most annoying He is obsessed with the potential for an opposing platoon advantage when he sets his batting order but all but oblivious when he actually writes the line-up card