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Ryan's pre season statements.

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#1 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:35 AM

I said this at the time, but I'd like to expand on it now that we are 1/4 of the way through the season.

Coming into the year, Terry went out of his way, time after time, to express that this was not a rebuilding year, and that he was putting out a team that would compete for the division.

Now, I think most of us here understood that he couldnt possibly believe that, some even said something to the effect of "what is he supposed to say..."

It is going to backfire on him.

The causal fan is going to remember all of those statements, and want heads to roll when we lose 90+ games for a 3rd straight season with what the GM kept telling them was a competitive roster, not a rebuilding project.

I think honesty would have been the far better strategy. Sure it may have hurt ticket sales in the short term, but I think it is going to backfire and cost even more ticket sales in the long term, and also bring a lot of heat on either him or Gardy to lose his job.
I think this fan base proved in the early 2000's that they are willing to embrace a rebuild if it is done honestly, and if they see legit upside coming through the system.

Perhaps even he knows this, and has done it intentionally, so that it will be easier to justify firing Gardy at the end of the year?
I doubt that, but who knows. I think most causal fans like Gardy, but now Ryan can say, "I put together a playoff caliber roster but the results werent there so we decided to make a change." Something along those lines.

Am I onto something here, or just on something?

#2 savvyspy

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:41 AM

They should have fire saled this mess last season. Now they have zero assets to move on the major league roster. Another in a line of expected epic fails for the worst front office in the game.

#3 ThePuck

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:44 AM

He also promised to do whatever he could to greatly improve this year's rotation...and seemed eager to tell anyone with a microphone how he did just that. Happy about all the quality depth he had acquired.

#4 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:47 AM

He also promised to do whatever he could to greatly improve this year's rotation...and seemed eager to tell anyone with a microphone how he did just that. Happy about all the quality depth he had acquired.


Well to be fair, he has managed to assemble incredible depth at the #6/#7 starter type.

#5 old nurse

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:57 AM

I think they expected a lot better offense from Doumit, Dozier and Parmalee, and a little bit more out of Morneau, Willingham, and Plouffe. Doumit Dozier and Parmalee with 100 points more on their OPS, Morneau and Willingham about 50 points more, Plouffe about 25 points more and you would have the offense they envisioned.

#6 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:00 AM

Incredible mismanagement of the customers.

The Twins could have gone with a theme of, "Pick Your Guy". They could have highlighted Dozier, Parmelee, Plouffe, Hicks, Arcia, etc. They could have sent a message saying, 'Be here while your guy makes his case to ride to The Playoffs with the hotshots we have coming.' Um, well, something like that.

Acknowledging it is a rebuilding year is not so bad.
Being an MLB GM and thinking this starting rotation was going to be good? That is bad.

So the question is, is he a liar or is he that out of touch?

#7 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

I think they expected a lot better offense from Doumit, Dozier and Parmalee, and a little bit more out of Morneau, Willingham, and Plouffe. Doumit Dozier and Parmalee with 100 points more on their OPS, Morneau and Willingham about 50 points more, Plouffe about 25 points more and you would have the offense they envisioned.


I'm not sure how much that changes the outcome of this season. With our pitching staff, even a massively improved offense wouldn't be enough to compete for the division.

And even so, that is still on them for being so inept at evaluating their own players.

#8 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:14 AM

The causal fan is going to remember all of those statements, and want heads to roll when we lose 90+ games for a 3rd straight season with what the GM kept telling them was a competitive roster, not a rebuilding project.
?


Really?

#9 ThePuck

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

well to be fair, he has managed to assemble incredible depth at the #6/#7 starter type.


lol!!!!

#10 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:18 AM

Really?


Yes. Just because they are casual fans does not mean they are brain dead zombies that can't remember the GM saying over and over again how competitive this team was going to be.
It's not like he said it once in some off the wall publication.
Anyone who picked up a sports section of a local paper from about mid January through April 1st would have seen these quotes.
Equating casual fan to moron is a bit arrogant IMO.

Even if they don't remember specifically when and how Ryan said it, it will have been imbedded into their thinking.
I can't tell you how many conversations I had with casual fans coming into this season who were very optimistic about the team.
When I'd ask them why they would say something like:
"I like the changes they have made with the pitching staff."
or, "Not sure, I've just heard that the roster has improved."
Etc., etc.

Edited by Mr. Brooks, 25 May 2013 - 09:21 AM.


#11 Rosterman

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:36 AM

Well, we were excited that the Twins may be a .500 team. But that has been shattered.

If you were truly contending, you would add those one or two special pieces. The Twins additions this year weren't special pieces, they were pieces to fill holes between rebuilding and putting a team on the field.

Would we be better served if all those empty spots had been filled with A and AA guys, getting a shot to perform like their current major league counterparts? Perhaps.

If there is soemthing that I always disliked about the Twins management, they always looked at fielding a team that would compete, not just flat out win. They look at staying strong in a division. Yet, the division si the strongest it has ever been, with Kansas City at least playing like a team that CAN compete, and the White Sox, though dismal at times, can still play head-to-head with the Twins. The Twins CAN'T play head-to-head, right now, with anyone.

The starting staff is in total shambles. The bullpen is flamning out. There's a total weakness in Hicks who makes Drew Butera or the pitcher in the line-up look like a batting order plus. We have Dozier, Parmelee, Willingham, Doumit slumping bigtime. We have Carroll shining, with Mauer and Morneau. Plouffe is brilliant when compared to so many others. We can't ask for anything more from Escobar or Florimon. Our bench is Colla and Ram. But there is little in the minors that can outplay the current roster in today's game, which is sad.
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#12 old nurse

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:40 AM

I'm not sure how much that changes the outcome of this season. With our pitching staff, even a massively improved offense wouldn't be enough to compete for the division.

And even so, that is still on them for being so inept at evaluating their own players.

Statistically check out where some of the players are at versus their norm or league average for their position.

#13 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:42 AM

Yes. Just because they are casual fans does not mean they are brain dead zombies that can't remember the GM saying over and over again how competitive this team was going to be.
It's not like he said it once in some off the wall publication.
Anyone who picked up a sports section of a local paper from about mid January through April 1st would have seen these quotes.
Equating casual fan to moron is a bit arrogant IMO.

Even if they don't remember specifically when and how Ryan said it, it will have been imbedded into their thinking.
I can't tell you how many conversations I had with casual fans coming into this season who were very optimistic about the team.
When I'd ask them why they would say something like:
"I like the changes they have made with the pitching staff."
or, "Not sure, I've just heard that the roster has improved."
Etc., etc.


I think we're using a different definition of casual fan. When I think casual fan, I think someone (usually a family) who doesn't really follow the Twins but who likes to go out a couple of times a year and spend an afternoon or night at the ballpark, usually as a family activity. They don't read the sports pages looking for insights on the teams future competitiveness, nor do they really care what the won-loss record is. And, while a win is always more fun than a loss, they are probably more concerned about food options than about the quality of the rotation. And just so there is no misunderstanding, I think there is nothing wrong with that and with the club making efforts to increase the quality of their game-day experience. They also are welcome at the table.

#14 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:47 AM

Statistically check out where some of the players are at versus their norm or league average for their position.


I'm not sure what that has to do with evaluating them coming into the season.
For example, of course Morneau is going to be below his career norm, he isnt the same player he was before the concussion in Toronto, and his career norm is weighted pretty heavily by his pre concussion numbers.

Example 2: Josh Willingham is only 43 pts below his career OPS. Given his age (34) and the fact that he is coming off a career year, I'd say that is right around where he should have been expected to be.

Expecting guys like Morneau (injury) and Willingham (age) to perform at their career norm is extremely inept, and is kind of my point here. That likely wasnt going to happen. It is the FO's job to take that into consideration.

#15 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

I think we're using a different definition of casual fan. When I think casual fan, I think someone (usually a family) who doesn't really follow the Twins but who likes to go out a couple of times a year and spend an afternoon or night at the ballpark, usually as a family activity. They don't read the sports pages looking for insights on the teams future competitiveness, nor do they really care what the won-loss record is. And, while a win is always more fun than a loss, they are probably more concerned about food options than about the quality of the rotation. And just so there is no misunderstanding, I think there is nothing wrong with that and with the club making efforts to increase the quality of their game-day experience. They also are welcome at the table.


The declining attendance since they began being terrible disagrees with this statement.

#16 old nurse

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:54 AM

@ rosterman

just having fun. Couldn't remember where I saw your name before so I went looking and this turned up. It can be yours for $10 on EBAY. Still couldn't figure out where I might have come across you
.Posted Image

#17 johnnydakota

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 10:37 AM

Incredible mismanagement of the customers.

The Twins could have gone with a theme of, "Pick Your Guy". They could have highlighted Dozier, Parmelee, Plouffe, Hicks, Arcia, etc. They could have sent a message saying, 'Be here while your guy makes his case to ride to The Playoffs with the hotshots we have coming.' Um, well, something like that.

Acknowledging it is a rebuilding year is not so bad.
Being an MLB GM and thinking this starting rotation was going to be good? That is bad.

So the question is, is he a liar or is he that out of touch?


Or has the game just past him by?

#18 fairweather

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:21 AM

Mr. Brooks I was having a very similar thought yesterday. Now that the chickens of the off season are coming home to roost what possible spin can they put on it that doesn't look REALLY bad for the whole front office. It is as you said really only 1 of 2 options, 1) They bold face lied when they said they would compete this season. 2) They're freaking idiots. I think it's number 1. Terry Ryan is concerned with only 1 thing constructing a cheap roster. He's perfectly content to ride the ups and downs that come with developing young talent and depending on that to stay competitive. I would go so far as to say he has contempt for the modern day big money ball players with their guaranteed contracts and primadonna attitudes. The bi-lateral leg weakness thing probably pushed him over the edge. :)

#19 nicksaviking

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:35 AM

Ryan provided a game changing theory to the game of baseball. He refused to trade prospects for vets and he demanded a high price in exchange for his vets. At the time teams were willing to make these moves because while clubs valued their very top young guys, any prospect that wasn't deemed elite was expendable and Ryan took advantage of other teams' "Win Now" mentality. This practice is widely adopted now which means he has lost his advantage. I don't know that Ryan has any other cards to play. He's too conservative and his hoarding of cheap young players seems to be the only revolutionary move that fits into his MO. The gig is up.

#20 Top Gun

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:53 AM

Rangers claimed OF Joe Benson off waivers from the Twins

#21 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:14 PM

Or has the game just past him by?


Hmm... interesting thought, but I doubt it.

GMs and staff often are ridiculously optimistic at the beginning of the year because they think that is how you get fans to the ballpark. Unfortunately, when a team is as far from being competitive as the Twins are, it is little more than a fib.

I know Terry Ryan knows far more about Major League Baseball than I ever will, but he HAD to know this year was going to be tough and he misrepresented the team to the customers.

That seldom goes over well.

#22 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:47 PM

Ryan provided a game changing theory to the game of baseball. He refused to trade prospects for vets and he demanded a high price in exchange for his vets. At the time teams were willing to make these moves because while clubs valued their very top young guys, any prospect that wasn't deemed elite was expendable and Ryan took advantage of other teams' "Win Now" mentality. This practice is widely adopted now which means he has lost his advantage. I don't know that Ryan has any other cards to play. He's too conservative and his hoarding of cheap young players seems to be the only revolutionary move that fits into his MO. The gig is up.


I'm not sure I'd go that far. The man built and runs an organization that knows how to scout players. He may not be able to pull off another AJ trade, but to say he cannot draft talent or still make good trades is a bit far off.

I'm not terribly keen on the "average fan" crap going around in this thread, but smart fans (and that should have included every one on this board) were smart enough to know that this was a rebuilding year the moment Span and Revere got traded... Why people are upset about that 40some games into the season is beyond me.

They are rebuilding. Next year's draft is strong... Another top 5 pick is going to make 2015/16 even that much nicer. May as well look forward to the future.

#23 Highabove

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:31 PM

It's just not the average Fans folks! Ryan promised the Season Ticket holders that he would do everything in his power to improve the Pitching Staff. Rebuilding or not, the Twins can and should have a better product. Ryan brings in the likes of Mike Palfrey on a trash can deal, and at the same time, millions of dollars are going back into Jim Pohlad's pocket. Lets not start the Straw man argument ( people are crazy if they think you can buy a pennant) The Twins had the resources to bring in better Pitching. This might have made the product more watchable. Over paying for better pitching might have been needed. My answer to this is SO WHAT!! How is the unspent millions helping this Franchise? In the past, the Twins have not carried over unspent payroll.

Edited by Highabove, 25 May 2013 - 02:59 PM.


#24 Joe A. Preusser

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:53 PM

I think they expected a lot better offense from Doumit, Dozier and Parmalee, and a little bit more out of Morneau, Willingham, and Plouffe. Doumit Dozier and Parmalee with 100 points more on their OPS, Morneau and Willingham about 50 points more, Plouffe about 25 points more and you would have the offense they envisioned.


None of this is unrealistic, and we would still be .500 if it had all happened. Very few Twins fans (even the die-hard pessimests on this message board) would be complaining if we were .500 right now.

#25 gunnarthor

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

None of this is unrealistic, and we would still be .500 if it had all happened. Very few Twins fans (even the die-hard pessimests on this message board) would be complaining if we were .500 right now.


I'm not so sure, there seemed to be a lot of complaining when the team was 18-17.

#26 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

I'm not so sure, there seemed to be a lot of complaining when the team was 18-17.


Because it wasn't hard to see that much of that 18-17 record was accomplished with smoke and mirrors. I was hopeful that the Twins would be a 75 win team but it was hard to envision them staying around .500 with Worley and Pelfrey stinking up the joint.

And once the magical pixie dust wore off Correia and the bullpen, we saw the true ugliness of this team.

#27 Thrylos

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

Yes. Just because they are casual fans does not mean they are brain dead zombies that can't remember the GM saying over and over again how competitive this team was going to be..


Fans who are listening to what the GM says before the season starts, are not casual...

Casual fans are the ones who worry more about who the hot dog vendor is at Target Field than who the opening day starter is for the Twins.

Casual fans just love Terry and Gardy, because they have seen their faces for a while and they love Gardy's commercials on the TV, while they cannot name the Twins' hitting coach. And if you tell them that it is Brunanksi, they never heard of him.

Casual fans do the wave, they do not make waves; and if the Twins do not win, just another minor oofda, especially if that cajun mac and cheese at the ballpark hits the spot...

Semantics

and unfortunately the Twins cater to those Casual Fans
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#28 JB_Iowa

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

I think a lot of casual fans remember 2 90+ loss seasons and aren't/won't be happy if they realize that this one is heading in the same direction.

Even casual fans know that the Twins pitching has not been good for years -- this current group isn't doing anything to change that impression. And being lied to by management is worse than if they had just shut up or told the truth.

#29 Vespasian

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 03:34 PM

I guess I would consider myself the very definition of a casual fan. I attend 4 - 5 games a year, usually with my family, and can rattle off a typical starting lineup, but I couldn't tell you how WAR is calculated if my life depended on it and I really couldn't name any prospects in the minors beyond Gibson, Buxton and Sano. In fact, this is my very first post on TD! One thing I do know - even as a casual fan - is that the Twins ended the season last year with a starting rotation consisting of Diamond and nobody and started this season with a rotation consisting of Diamond (whom I figured was due to regress, as indeed he has), and nobody. I guess I was intrigued by Worley, which in hindsight is obviously no credit to me. One thing I do know is that nobody, whether a hardcore sabremetrician or some random guy like me could have expected this rotation to be competitive despite what the front office said. But I guess I should not be surprised the front office was willing to lie to the general public when their idea of accountability was firing Jerry White. In fact, I am disgusted with the condescension of this organization towards its fans - casual or otherwise - who are paying the ridiculous ticket prices and buying the $5 iced teas. The unwillingness to sign even one legitimate free agent in what we all knew was going to be a down year - to give folks like me a reason to say, "hey, I might want to head down to Target Field to see this guy play" - has me very close to tuning out completely for the next few years. It's not illegal - they can do it this way if they want to - but they shouldn't be surprised that attendance is falling. I actually think there are a lot of guys like me out there. Not super hard-core fans, but not showing up for the "stadium experience" either and who have the ability to tell the difference between legitimate major league players and AAA wanna-bes. Why should I pay my hard earned money to watch this garbage? Anyway, great site. Glad I found it.

#30 TheLeviathan

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

Anyway, great site. Glad I found it.


Great first post as well. I think you summarized where a lot of people stand.

This kind of sentiment is exactly what all the staunch Twins defenders should consider when they advocate whole-sale punting of this year and next.