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#1 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:53 PM

So, yeah.....they screwed up royal huh? I mean, for all the Bush bashing (he was an idiot, no doubt) - this is a pretty impressive stream of corruption, no?

Edited by TheLeviathan, 15 May 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#2 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:04 PM

Yeesh. It will be interesting to see how it plays out as we find out more. Pretty ugly stuff.

#3 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

I'm not sure Obama realizes saying "I found out like the rest of you" is all that reassuring. Either you're lying or you are incompetent. I'm really hoping for "lying"...but that sort of reinforces who the source of this is.

I doubt he'll ever get pinned as having a direct connection, but it's clear this sort of thing is being allowed/encouraged in the administration. It's scary the depths of it already.

#4 drjim

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:32 PM

Which of the three are you referring to? I assume the IRS scandal? Yeah, that is quite unfortunate. What is interesting is that the behavior of the groups was probably illegal, and at best was an attempt to muck up and skirt campaign finance laws. I don't think those groups were unique in that, just that they were specifically targeted for extra scrutiny. What is also interesting is that the IRS head at the time was a Bush appointee.

My ultimate hope is that this will finally lead to some meaningful tax reform. I'm not holding my breath.

As for the other two:

The AP scandal strikes me as just another consequence of power that is ceded to the executive in times of war. Luckily this war will go on indefinitely.

I think Benghazi is the most overrated scandal of my lifetime. It is ultimately going to be seen as a turf battle between the State Department and CIA, which each trying to blame the other for the initial security failure.
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#5 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:40 PM

I rank Benghazi well below the others too, but in the context of other actions by the administration, it certainly doesn't help their cause that it it was a simple mistake.

I'm referring more to the AP and IRS scandals. Both deliberate invasions of privacy and misuse of power to intimidate. Benghazi, Woodward, and others are more the smoke that indicates there is a fire, those two scandals are the fires.

#6 drjim

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:19 PM

I rank Benghazi well below the others too, but in the context of other actions by the administration, it certainly doesn't help their cause that it it was a simple mistake.

I'm referring more to the AP and IRS scandals. Both deliberate invasions of privacy and misuse of power to intimidate. Benghazi, Woodward, and others are more the smoke that indicates there is a fire, those two scandals are the fires.


The AP scandal is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. As far as I can tell what they did was perfectly legitimate and is covered by legislation that has passed since 9/11. The press has been way too deferential and congress hasn't been much more than a rubber stamp when it comes to expanding executive power. This is only the tip of the iceberg of what could happen down the line, all in the name of war and security.

I generally see the Obama administration as restrained and noble on these issues relative to what an administration could be. I am quite concerned going forward.
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#7 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

I generally see the Obama administration as restrained and noble on these issues relative to what an administration could be. I am quite concerned going forward.


There have only been two administrations with this power and the abuse of it has steadily grown through both. I concur about the future and about it being technically legal, but this same administration has been outfront reassuring us that they won't overstep with their use of these powers. They were outwardly critical of the previous administration for far less.

#8 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:04 AM

I generally see the Obama administration as restrained and noble on these issues relative to what an administration could be. I am quite concerned going forward.


I think the Obama administration has taken the war on terror excuse and gone farther with it than even Bush did. The NDAA is terrifying. Obama is absolutely horrible on civil rights.

#9 drjim

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:36 AM

I should clarify. I'm not saying the Obama Administration has been good on this, just more restrained than I expected. It will likely get worse.

#10 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

In the rush to take away our rights, passed under the previous administration, this invasion of our privacy was inevitable. I will find the irony of the right complaining about this to be quite humorous. They are the ones that love torture and Guantamo and profiling and other things, right? I think it is sad how everyone is so willing to give up their freedoms in the name of "safety". What ever happend to give me liberty, or give me death?

As for Bengahzi, who cares?

As for the IRS scandal, that's a bad one. Really bad one. If we can't trust the government (and I'm not arguing we actually can) to be even handed in their treatment of groups (like, you know, how we've fairly treated socialist, communist, unions and other left wing groups over the last century), then our government needs to be cleaned up. At this point, it is not better than governments in other countries that we ridicule for being corrupt. I am disgusted by this, and people should go to jail over that. You know, like all those guys that ran military companies while Bush was president that stole money from the people....
Lighten up Francis....

#11 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

[quote name='mike wants wins']In the rush to take away our rights, passed under the previous administration, this invasion of our privacy was inevitable. I will find the irony of the right complaining about this to be quite humorous. They are the ones that love torture and Guantamo and profiling and other things, right? I think it is sad how everyone is so willing to give up their freedoms in the name of "safety". What ever happend to give me liberty, or give me death?[/QUOTE]

Well said.

[quote name='mike wants wins']As for Bengahzi, who cares?[/QUOTE]

Nobody with a brain.

[quote name='mike wants wins']As for the IRS scandal, that's a bad one. Really bad one. If we can't trust the government (and I'm not arguing we actually can) to be even handed in their treatment of groups (like, you know, how we've fairly treated socialist, communist, unions and other left wing groups over the last century), then our government needs to be cleaned up. At this point, it is not better than governments in other countries that we ridicule for being corrupt. I am disgusted by this, and people should go to jail over that. You know, like all those guys that ran military companies while Bush was president that stole money from the people....[/QUOTE]

America has spent the past ten years not throwing the right people in jail. No war profiteers are in jail. No sleazy bank profiteers are in jail. Now, there will be no IRS officials in jail.

But hey, we've got lots of poor black men in jail for slinging the drugs that white people want.

That counts for something, right?

#12 PseudoSABR

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:43 AM

It's hard not to see these scandals as abuses of power rather than abuses of politics. The Presidency's reach, sway and responsibility have long gone unchecked, and its abuses defy partiality.

#13 PseudoSABR

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:45 AM

As far as the politics play out, the Democrats are fortunate that the midterms aren't this election cycle. Though, as abuses go none of these compare to the actual consequences or the sheer number of moving parts behind Bush's WMDs.

#14 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:59 AM

As far as the politics play out, the Democrats are fortunate that the midterms aren't this election cycle. Though, as abuses go none of these compare to the actual consequences or the sheer number of moving parts behind Bush's WMDs.


Bah, sending a bunch of poor kids overseas to die pales compared to trying make only some organizations follow the law...*

*if you can't recognize this for the sarcasm it is, sorry.....
Lighten up Francis....

#15 TheLeviathan

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:21 AM

As far as the politics play out, the Democrats are fortunate that the midterms aren't this election cycle. Though, as abuses go none of these compare to the actual consequences or the sheer number of moving parts behind Bush's WMDs.


Apples and oranges. And you know it, that's a pretty disengenuous argument Psuedo.

#16 mikecgrimes

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:33 PM

Which of the three are you referring to? I assume the IRS scandal? Yeah, that is quite unfortunate. What is interesting is that the behavior of the groups was probably illegal,


Not at all illegal. Maybe something certain politicians would like to see made illegal, but as the courts have ruled this is a freedom of speech issue. This is the way groups like this organize and raise funds. If the rules were different these groups would organize different, but they aren't gonna go about it the way John McCain and Harry Reid wish they would simply because that might seem more fair. McCain Fiengold was noble legislation but it didn't work and according to the courts it's not legal.

#17 mikecgrimes

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:40 PM

I rank Benghazi well below the others too, but in the context of other actions by the administration, it certainly doesn't help their cause that it it was a simple mistake.

I'm referring more to the AP and IRS scandals. Both deliberate invasions of privacy and misuse of power to intimidate. Benghazi, Woodward, and others are more the smoke that indicates there is a fire, those two scandals are the fires.


If Benghazi is what we would hope it is (nothing more then the talking points scandal) then I agree. The key question is why was ambassador Stevens in that location that day. Who sent him there, why was he told his purpose there was. I think I know what was going on in Benghazi and if you are willing to do your own research it's not that hard for you to figure out what was going on as well. If you still trust this president let him frame the facts.

#18 mikecgrimes

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:45 PM

In the rush to take away our rights, passed under the previous administration, this invasion of our privacy was inevitable. I will find the irony of the right complaining about this to be quite humorous.


I suppose George Bush was a Republican but come on we complained about this stuff when it happened. Maybe not the partisan types but the tea party types sure did.

#19 PseudoSABR

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

Apples and oranges. And you know it, that's a pretty disengenuous argument Psuedo.

You brought up Bush... What comparison were you inviting if not that abuse of power and influence?

These scandals while falling under the Presidency are pretty far removed from the President and the Whitehouse. The Bureaucracy of the Presidency needs to be redistributed in away that creates checks and balances.

Edited by PseudoSABR, 21 May 2013 - 11:44 AM.


#20 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:39 PM

Posted Image Originally Posted by mike wants wins Posted Image
As for Bengahzi, who cares?





Nobody with a brain.


A majority of the country doesn't even know about it, because the MSM refused to cover it, now they are playing catch up.

So, I care at least.

Please stop the name calling and see your very own comment rules on this site.
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#21 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:41 PM

Eric Holder will fall before Obama, and only then if the incompetent republican leadership can put together an independent special prosecutor to get to the bottom of all these scandals.
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#22 drjim

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:13 PM

If Benghazi is what we would hope it is (nothing more then the talking points scandal) then I agree. The key question is why was ambassador Stevens in that location that day. Who sent him there, why was he told his purpose there was. I think I know what was going on in Benghazi and if you are willing to do your own research it's not that hard for you to figure out what was going on as well. If you still trust this president let him frame the facts.


I am very interested to hear what you think was "really" going on in Benghazi.
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#23 drjim

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:16 PM

A majority of the country doesn't even know about it, because the MSM refused to cover it, now they are playing catch up.

So, I care at least.

Please stop the name calling and see your very own comment rules on this site.


The old "people aren't outraged because the MSM won't cover it" angle. I approve. I can only imagine how disappointed you must be with an institution you put so much trust in and admire like the MSM letting you and the whole country down.
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#24 drjim

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:21 PM

Eric Holder will fall before Obama, and only then if the incompetent republican leadership can put together an independent special prosecutor to get to the bottom of all these scandals.


I'll save you the time and energy - not a whole lot is at the bottom of these scandals. They will consume some oxygen for the next couple of weeks because the Washington press is bored, and then they will move on to something else as equally mundane. For a couple of months after that some right wingers will keep hammering at them, gain no traction, and then blame the MSM for not covering them closely enough.
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#25 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:37 PM

I'll save you the time and energy - not a whole lot is at the bottom of these scandals. They will consume some oxygen for the next couple of weeks because the Washington press is bored, and then they will move on to something else as equally mundane. For a couple of months after that some right wingers will keep hammering at them, gain no traction, and then blame the MSM for not covering them closely enough.


You are aware that many left-wingers are leading the charge now, right?

Concerning the MSM, I'm not personally defrauded by their censorship of the news, but am very worried about low info votes being even less informed. I think only 40% of the country knows who the VP is.

That is very scary for a republic.
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#26 drjim

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

You are aware that many left-wingers are leading the charge now, right?

Concerning the MSM, I'm not personally defrauded by their censorship of the news, but am very worried about low info votes being even less informed. I think only 40% of the country knows who the VP is.

That is very scary for a republic.


I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the MSM. And this is not exactly a new phenomenon. The majority of the population has been stupid (and ill-informed) since the founding of the country, why would we expect anything different now?

On your other point: left-wingers are indeed leading the charge for the AP situation because it involved the media directly, but it really won't last. My hope, as I said before, is that it leads to some awareness of and reining in of the power of the executive, but I'm not holding my breath. We have a never-ending war to fight!
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#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:16 AM

A majority of the country doesn't even know about it, because the MSM refused to cover it, now they are playing catch up.

So, I care at least.

Please stop the name calling and see your very own comment rules on this site.


So because the majority of the American public doesn't know about it, that somehow qualifies it as a scandal?

The mainstream media sucked at their job. Film at eleven.

And you have a very loose definition of "name calling". All I have to say in response is "ex post facto".

#28 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:36 AM

So because the majority of the American public doesn't know about it, that somehow qualifies it as a scandal?


No. One wonders how your mind works, making enormous leaps of logic.

You asked: "Who cares?"

I don't know of many people who care about things they know not of. Only in your world.
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#29 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:46 AM

No. One wonders how your mind works, making enormous leaps of logic.

You asked: "Who cares?"

I don't know of many people who care about things they know not of. Only in your world.


So "many people don't know about it" has transformed into "no one knows about it". I know about it. Most of the posters in this thread apparently know about it. The GOP tried to use it as a wedge issue in the last election so apparently they knew about it. Thereby, anyone who followed the election knew about it.

Lots of people know about it. In my observations, most who do not carry a partisan agenda do not care about it.

And you really need to step off that high horse of yours. Five posts ago, you accused me of insulting you after the fact while this post can easily be interpreted as an insult aimed directly at me.

#30 mike wants wins

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:29 AM

You are aware that many left-wingers are leading the charge now, right?

Concerning the MSM, I'm not personally defrauded by their censorship of the news, but am very worried about low info votes being even less informed. I think only 40% of the country knows who the VP is.

That is very scary for a republic.


Like the Koch brothers trying to buy every major newspaper, so they can control the message? It is scary indeed. I doubt the mainstream media can survive what they will do to it if they get control. Between Fox's bias and CNN's ineptitude, who even trusts the MSM at this point?
Lighten up Francis....