Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

The Store

Recent Blogs

Photo

Rosenthal: Gardy's Job Prospects

  • Please log in to reply
95 replies to this topic

#1 John Bonnes

John Bonnes

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 244 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:21 AM

Ken Rosenthal wrote a story on 12 managers that are thin ice, including Twins manager Ron Gardenhire. He can't figure out why the Twins would fire him and things Gardy will be fine if they do...

The Mets, for whom Gardenhire played from 1981 to '85, would be an interesting possibility if the Twins let him go. Like Scioscia, Gardenhire would not be out of work long.


I suspect he's right. If Gardy wants to keep managing (and he seems like the kind of guy who would) he'll be hired by someone fast. Don't you think?

Both L.A. managers among 12 skippers on the hot seat for 2013 - MLB News | FOX Sports on MSN

#2 IdahoPilgrim

IdahoPilgrim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,424 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:36 AM

I think most (admittedly not all) who are advocating for a change are not doing so because they think he can't manage - they think he can no longer manage here, for whatever reason (getting stale, needing fresh ideas, need to send a message after two bad seasons, players not responding, etc.)

I'm one of those who think Ryan has handled Gardenhire appropriately over the offseason. His track record calls for him to get to manage another year here (although I am a bit troubled by his post-season record), but if we don't see some signs of hope for the future this year it will be time to reevaluate that in October.

#3 cmathewson

cmathewson

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:49 AM

Seems a little premature to start writing his Twins managerial obit before the Twins have played an inning in 2013.

I have seen signs of humility that were noticeably lacking during the Smith years. Smith seemed to defer to Gardy a lot on roster construction (trading Hardy to make room for Nishioka, e.g.). Ryan does none of that. He's put his stamp on the roster and coaching staff and he expects Gardy to work with his people and innovate. To Gardy's credit, he's said he's willing to try new things. Today's Berardino story is an example of how he's even considering breaking the mold of having the #2 hitter as a slap and sacrifice guy and using a run producer ( Mauer) instead.

All these are signs of a new and improved Gardy. How much that affects his ability to manage a winner and, therefore, keep his job, is an open question. That's why we play the games.
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#4 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,497 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:54 AM

Sure, Gardy could find another job if he wanted one.
He's not a bad manager.
But I also have no problem with the people who think he should be let go.
Like cmathewson said, the question of 'good/bad manager' in a vacuum is not the only reason managers or coaches get fired.

#5 Jim H

Jim H

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 439 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:58 AM

I guess I don't see how using Mauer as a #2 hitter is something new. Gardy has done it before, it just didn't really work all that well, in an admittedly small sample. The truth is it probably doesn't matter much if Mauer bats 2nd or 3rd. I prefer him in the 3rd spot myself. The same 3 guys are going to bat in front of Mauer no matter if he is batting 2nd or 3rd. Just in slightly different order. The big difference is the first inning. Batting Mauer 3rd increases the chance there is a runner on base when Mauer bats in the first inning. I like that because he hits extremely well with runners on base.

#6 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,497 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:02 AM

I guess I don't see how using Mauer as a #2 hitter is something new. Gardy has done it before, it just didn't really work all that well, in an admittedly small sample. The truth is it probably doesn't matter much if Mauer bats 2nd or 3rd. I prefer him in the 3rd spot myself. The same 3 guys are going to bat in front of Mauer no matter if he is batting 2nd or 3rd. Just in slightly different order. The big difference is the first inning. Batting Mauer 3rd increases the chance there is a runner on base when Mauer bats in the first inning. I like that because he hits extremely well with runners on base.


No, the biggest difference, is that unless you have someone qualified to bat #2, you are giving a poor hitter an extra 150 PA's over the course of the season.
Those who want Mauer in the 2 hole aren't so much concerned with which order the guys in front of him are hitting, we are concerned with giving those 150 extra PA's to your better hitters, as opposed to someone who should be hitting 8th or 9th.

And Mauer has an OPS 14 points higher in the 2 hole than he does in the 3 hole, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say it hasnt worked well.

#7 cmathewson

cmathewson

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:11 AM

I guess I don't see how using Mauer as a #2 hitter is something new. Gardy has done it before, it just didn't really work all that well, in an admittedly small sample. The truth is it probably doesn't matter much if Mauer bats 2nd or 3rd. I prefer him in the 3rd spot myself. The same 3 guys are going to bat in front of Mauer no matter if he is batting 2nd or 3rd. Just in slightly different order. The big difference is the first inning. Batting Mauer 3rd increases the chance there is a runner on base when Mauer bats in the first inning. I like that because he hits extremely well with runners on base.


To me, the interesting thing from the article is that Gardy implied that the stat guy thinks Mauer should hit second, and Gardy is considering it on that basis.

The logic is simple: Get the guys who get on base at the top. Don't put a .330 OBP guy in the 2 hole just because a percentage of his at bats will be wasted (when he will be needed to sacrifice and otherwise get Hicks over). In the best case as a 2 hitter, Mauer comes up with no one on base like 50 percent of the time. And there's no better guy on this team as a table setter. On the other hand, as a 3 hitter, he'll come up with guys on base about 50 percent of the time. And there's no one on this team who's better in those situations.

As the stat guy said, "In a perfect world, Mauer should hit first, second and third." The question is, with the other hitters in this line-up where will he be best placed? Assuming Hicks and Morneau are the guys we saw in spring training, I think second is the best spot. That's a big assumption, though. Both Hicks and Morneau hit way better this spring than they project to hit in the regular season.
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#8 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 4,453 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:15 AM

I guess I don't see how using Mauer as a #2 hitter is something new. Gardy has done it before, it just didn't really work all that well, in an admittedly small sample. The truth is it probably doesn't matter much if Mauer bats 2nd or 3rd. I prefer him in the 3rd spot myself. The same 3 guys are going to bat in front of Mauer no matter if he is batting 2nd or 3rd. Just in slightly different order. The big difference is the first inning. Batting Mauer 3rd increases the chance there is a runner on base when Mauer bats in the first inning. I like that because he hits extremely well with runners on base.


If memory serves me right, it worked out very well (to the tune of 5-6 runs a game during the sample). Gardy went back to his old ways when some people came back from injury.

#9 Ultima Ratio

Ultima Ratio

    Super friend

  • Members
  • 1,743 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:30 PM

I really don't care all that much.
Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

#10 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,013 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:41 PM

Seems a little premature to start writing his Twins managerial obit before the Twins have played an inning in 2013.

I have seen signs of humility that were noticeably lacking during the Smith years. Smith seemed to defer to Gardy a lot on roster construction (trading Hardy to make room for Nishioka, e.g.). Ryan does none of that. He's put his stamp on the roster and coaching staff and he expects Gardy to work with his people and innovate. To Gardy's credit, he's said he's willing to try new things. Today's Berardino story is an example of how he's even considering breaking the mold of having the #2 hitter as a slap and sacrifice guy and using a run producer ( Mauer) instead.

All these are signs of a new and improved Gardy. How much that affects his ability to manage a winner and, therefore, keep his job, is an open question. That's why we play the games.


Excellent post. Right on.

#11 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,013 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:50 PM

Though that article is still mildly frightening.

#12 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

'If Gardy wants to keep managing (and he seems like the kind of guy who would) he'll be hired by someone fast. Don't you think?'

Only one way to find out... :-)

#13 Halsey Hall

Halsey Hall

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 746 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:03 PM

I've seen fans from other parts of the country down here talking about how good a manager Gardy is, the last a group from St Louis who observed he didn't have much to work with the last couple of years.

I'm still bitter with how he handled post season with Santana, and for pulling Balfour for Nathan to lose to the Yankees.

He was down for the minor league games this morning and saw Justin K twice, ground out and line out.

#14 Aaron Cross

Aaron Cross

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 158 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:03 PM

I think most (admittedly not all) who are advocating for a change are not doing so because they think he can't manage - they think he can no longer manage here, for whatever reason (getting stale, needing fresh ideas, need to send a message after two bad seasons, players not responding, etc.)

I'm one of those who think Ryan has handled Gardenhire appropriately over the offseason. His track record calls for him to get to manage another year here (although I am a bit troubled by his post-season record), but if we don't see some signs of hope for the future this year it will be time to reevaluate that in October.


Explain to me what's so great about his track record? A few meaningless division titles in the most mediocre division in baseball? Beating up on the softies in the Central and always playing scared against the big boys out east? Abysmal playoff futility of historic proportions? Robotic managing? Not sending his starter out for the next inning if he's at 95 pitches (no matter how good he's going)? Burning out his bullpen by July? Batting Matt Tolbert 2nd?

Edited by Aaron Cross, 30 March 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#15 Aaron Cross

Aaron Cross

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 158 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:15 PM

No, the biggest difference, is that unless you have someone qualified to bat #2, you are giving a poor hitter an extra 150 PA's over the course of the season.
Those who want Mauer in the 2 hole aren't so much concerned with which order the guys in front of him are hitting, we are concerned with giving those 150 extra PA's to your better hitters, as opposed to someone who should be hitting 8th or 9th.

And Mauer has an OPS 14 points higher in the 2 hole than he does in the 3 hole, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say it hasnt worked well.

Exactly spot on. Not only are poor hitters getting more plate appearances over the course of the year, but Mauer's getting less plate appearances batting 3rd. I'm all for Mauer getting as many AB's as possible. Batting 2nd gets him more atbats. What could be more frustrating than Mauer batting 3rd and ending the game in the on deck circle?

#16 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:22 PM

What could be more frustrating than Mauer batting 3rd and ending the game in the on deck circle?


Is there a study, or some stats, that say #3 hitters are more likely to end the game in the on deck circle than #2 hitters...or really, more than any other spot in the batting order?

#17 Aaron Cross

Aaron Cross

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 158 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:27 PM

Is there a study that says #3 hitters are more likely to end the game in the on deck circle than #2 hitters...or really, more than any other spot in the batting order?

My point is that Mauer will get more atbats over the course of the season if he bats 2nd. Hell, I'd bat him leadoff. He's the best hitter on the team. He has the best OBP. Bat him 1st and maximize his number of plate appearances over the course of the year.

#18 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

My point is that Mauer will get more atbats over the course of the season if he bats 2nd. Hell, I'd bat him leadoff. He's the best hitter on the team. He has the best OBP. Bat him 1st and maximize his number of plate appearances over the course of the year.


And give him less opportunities to drive in runs when he is our best hitter with RISP?

#19 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,899 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:21 PM

I've seen fans from other parts of the country down here talking about how good a manager Gardy is, the last a group from St Louis who observed he didn't have much to work with the last couple of years.

I'm still bitter with how he handled post season with Santana, and for pulling Balfour for Nathan to lose to the Yankees.

He was down for the minor league games this morning and saw Justin K twice, ground out and line out.


How did he mishandle Santana? Start him in game one of every series? Pull him after 5 innings on short rest when Santana told him he was out of gas?

Also, Balfour was replaced by Rincon. Had Balfour stayed in it would have been his first outing of three innings that season. Is that something you want to start doing in the playoffs? And Rincon had been lights out all year. This is the ultimate hindsight whine.
Papers...business papers.

#20 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,899 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

As far as Gardy this year, I would have little problem with him being replaced after the season. He is a good manager, probably one of the best in the game, but he has been here since 2002. That is a really good run in baseball or any leadership position in any industry. At some point it makes sense to go a different direction.

The chances are the Twins are going to trade off more veteran pieces and break out more kids this year so there could be a need for more energy and someone willing to go through the growing pains of what should be a young team the next 3-4 years.
Papers...business papers.

#21 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:27 PM

Man, I can't wait for the season to start......

Posted Image

#22 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,497 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

I've seen fans from other parts of the country down here talking about how good a manager Gardy is, the last a group from St Louis who observed he didn't have much to work with the last couple of years.

I'm still bitter with how he handled post season with Santana, and for pulling Balfour for Nathan to lose to the Yankees.

He was down for the minor league games this morning and saw Justin K twice, ground out and line out.


A helpless rookie Kubel standing in against Rivera is the one that will always stand out to me.

#23 Halsey Hall

Halsey Hall

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 746 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:45 PM

Not hindsight whine, maybe you do that. Balfour struck out the Yankees on 9 or 10 pitches. I was screaming for him to come out for the 9th inning until someone got on base. But whatever, Gardy didn't handle it the way I would have.

#24 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 3,434 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:46 PM

I continue to hope that Mr. Gardenhire and Mr. Ryan have a game plan for Gardenhire's graceful exit from the manager's role after the season. That could be either Gardenhire going to another team as manager (I think it would rejuvenate him) or it could be a different role with the Twins.

I really wanted this to happen last summer with Gardenhire announcing he was stepping down after the season and allowing for a nice "farewell tour" of the Central.

But since it didn't happen then, I'll continue to hope it happens this year. I don't want to see it come to a situation where the Twins fire Gardenhire or say they won't renew him -- I'd much rather it be Gardenhire's choice to leave the Twins' manager job. But I also think that a change in manager would be good for this team (and that a new job would be good for Gardenhire).

#25 Jim H

Jim H

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 439 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:48 PM

As CMath sort of suggested, there are good reasons to bat Mauer 1st, 2nd or 3rd. I rather like him in the 3rd spot, because he will get more chances to drive in runs and advance runners. Clearly he is good in the 2nd spot as well because of his ability to get on base. A lot depends on who bats 2nd and how they do there. If Dozier and/or Carroll bat 2nd and get on base at good clip, batting Mauer 3rd makes sense to me. The difference between 2 and 3 in the lineup is what, 30 PA's over the whole season? If you increase the runners on base in front of Mauer in the first inning by 30%, by batting him 3rd, that would 48 more baserunners for him to drive in or advance. I think that the advantage of more baserunners total(by batting Mauer 2nd) is somewhat offset by the advantage of having your best hitter get more RBI opportunities.

Actually, it doesn't really matter to me which spot Mauer is in, because I doubt if the total runs scored would really change much.

#26 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 8,792 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks

Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

Yeah, you haven't read the majority of his posts then.


At least 95% of them. He's a good soul with an opinion. His biggest problem is his sense of pride over Alex Trebec.

#27 Thrylos

Thrylos

    Yes

  • Members
  • 4,210 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:40 PM

I really would not care what happens to Gardenhire (and Andy and Scottie and Vavry) after this season is over and they say their goodbyes, but I know that I will be celebrating :)
-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
http://tenthinningst...h.blogspot.com/
twitter: @thrylos98

#28 cmathewson

cmathewson

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

A helpless rookie Kubel standing in against Rivera is the one that will always stand out to me.


That was a bad one. And leaving Nathan out there for his third inning with a warmed-up Jesse Crain ready was worse. But it's always worth noting that none of that matters if Koskie's drive stays in the park. Point: So many variables. so little time.

I can give him slack for I know that every decision I've made has been contingent on so much outside of my control. Still, Juan Rincon against Ruben Sierra? After Balfour had been so lights out. Really?
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#29 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 4,453 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

That was a bad one. And leaving Nathan out there for his third inning with a warmed-up Jesse Crain ready was worse. But it's always worth noting that none of that matters if Koskie's drive stays in the park. Point: So many variables. so little time.

I can give him slack for I know that every decision I've made has been contingent on so much outside of my control. Still, Juan Rincon against Ruben Sierra? After Balfour had been so lights out. Really?


Ah. the bad bitter memories. I posted in a different forum in those days and remember commenting a day or two before that game that I thought Gardy was a bad manager and needed to go. None of the other posters were Twins fans... and then that game happened.

#30 cmathewson

cmathewson

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

Ah. the bad bitter memories. I posted in a different forum in those days and remember commenting a day or two before that game that I thought Gardy was a bad manager and needed to go. None of the other posters were Twins fans... and then that game happened.


I was in the stands in right center--seats that were closed during the regular season with a curtain. I remember saying to the guy who bought the tickets that Balfour could go at least one more inning and that there was no way the Yanquis would hit him. But I expected Gardy to go to his formula and pick Rincon (who had been horribly overused in September) and that I didn't like the move. Sure enough, bloop single, walk, and boom. The ball was coming right for us, until it arced down. In right field in the Dome, you could never tell if it was a homer, but the reaction of the crowed was enough to confirm our worst fears. And we walked back to our cars wondering what might have been. Sigh.
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."