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Beat the Rush: Fire Gardy and Terry Ryan Now!

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#1 PatMearesFan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

seriously.....why our we letting these blind mice drive the ship right into the ice berg? why not fire them now and bring in moliter to take control and put this team on the right track? we need pitching and nothing got done!!! another 100 losses? how can we keep these guys?

#2 roger

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

seriously.....why our we letting these blind mice drive the ship right into the ice berg? why not fire them now and bring in moliter to take control and put this team on the right track? we need pitching and nothing got done!!! another 100 losses? how can we keep these guys?


Seriously, why does someone (Twins Daily in this case) give people the opportunity to spew total garbage for all of us to read?

#3 LoganJones

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

I kno, rite?

#4 Seth Stohs

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:00 PM

Seriously, why does someone (Twins Daily in this case) give people the opportunity to spew total garbage for all of us to read?


First of all, everyone is able to join the forum... However, that does not guarantee that they will be able to continue to comment. This forum has the potential to be deleted quickly depending upon how it goes.

#5 PatMearesFan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:04 PM

what did i say wrong? did the twins not lose almost 200 games the past two years? this team has a huge payroll and comes in last two years in a row and probably a 3rd year in a row!! no other fan bases other then pittsburgh would be ok with this, why should we? it wasn't even this bad under bill smith!

#6 LoganJones

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

It's not so much the content of your message as the delivery. You're more than welcome to advocate the dismissal of the Twins staff. If you do t in a way that suggests you are unfamiliar with english, then people might be inclined to write you off.

#7 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

Seriously, why does someone (Twins Daily in this case) give people the opportunity to spew total garbage for all of us to read?

I know, right? I hate it when I'm forced to click into a thread. Especially when the title of the thread gives me no clue what the thread will contain.

#8 PatMearesFan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

what is wrong with my english? way to not debate the substances of my posts and instead use personal attacks to try to undermine what i am saying. how about that for english language lol!

honest though, what good has gardenhoser or ryan done the past few years? 200 losses?

#9 The Wise One

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

what is wrong with my english? way to not debate the substances of my posts and instead use personal attacks to try to undermine what i am saying. how about that for english language lol!

honest though, what good has gardenhoser or ryan done the past few years? 200 losses?


First you have to have something of substance to post to have a debate. You cry over a personal attack and yet call Gardenhire gardenhoser, a personal attack as well as other disprespectfull, inflamatory, comments.

#10 twinsnorth49

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:28 PM

I have no problem with your post, you're entitled to it and it's pretty understandable after the last couple of years. I disagee with now being the time to do it, especially in Ryan's case, after this year all bets are off for Gardy, although this team is not assembled to accomplish much, which may give him another opportunity, rightly or wrongly. Ryan isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I think calling them blind mice may have been a bit over the top, I get the sense that's where people didn't take you too seriously.

#11 Top Gun

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:30 PM

It's a little late to fire them now when the ship is sailing, should have done that last fal, just as well let them play there hand.

#12 Seth Stohs

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

Ok, let's go with it, but this thread is going to be closely monitored...

Ron Gardenhire led the Twins to some really terrific seasons for a decade. He is the same manager as he was at that time. Now, that's not to say that another losing season won't end his time with the Twins, but that's just the nature of the business more than saying he isn't a very good manager. He is.

Terry Ryan left the job for four years and in that time, the farm system dropped off, and Bill Smith made some bad decisions. Ryan came back one offseason ago, and he learned a lot about the situation at hand in 2012. He made some terrific trades for the future of the Twins organization this offseason and added players to the system that give them hope for turning things around. He is a good baseball man who knows the game and he knows his job. He certainly has earned more than one year in his return.

#13 Haddyz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

Ryan came back one offseason ago, and he learned a lot about the situation at hand in 2012. He made some terrific trades for the future of the Twins organization this offseason and added players to the system that give them hope for turning things around. He is a good baseball man who knows the game and he knows his job. He certainly has earned more than one year in his return.


Well put.
I was very excited when I saw the trades made (during the winter meetings). Hopefully they do turn out to be terrific. Needless to say the trades made during Bill's turn, weren't the greatest. The one I thought was good, was Gomez for Hardy. That could have aided us more the last couple years.

I think Ryan does an exceptional job at keeping the minor league (namely AAA) stocked with decent depth. That may not be MLB talent, but often people with MLB experience are making up the rotations until they can stockpile young, good arms, readying them.

Gardenhire makes a lot of mistakes during games, especially those against NY teams, especially within the playoffs. That's his only knock you'll hear from me. But anyone touting themselves a "Pat Meares Fan" needs to be closely monitored alright, but probably much more so in some asylum. Unless it's a joke, in which case, hilarious! That's like saying Denny Hocking is amazing.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

#14 glunn

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:46 PM

seriously.....why our we letting these blind mice drive the ship right into the ice berg? why not fire them now and bring in moliter to take control and put this team on the right track? we need pitching and nothing got done!!! another 100 losses? how can we keep these guys?


First, I want to welcome you to Twins Daily. We love fans who are passionate, so you should be able to fit in here.

Please note, however, that everyone benefits when we make an effort keep the tone at a moderate level.

Here is an example of how you might have made your point without causing an uproar:

"I don't understand why the Twins don't fire Gardenhire and Ryan now, and bring in Molitor to put the team on the right track. We needed pitching and Ryan did not provide the level of pitchers that would make the Twins competitive. Another 100 losses seems possible this year. Why are the Twins keeping these guys?"

The substance of your post could be basically the same, but you would be inviting discussion and debate instead of creating the impression that you are inviting argument or just venting your anger.

Again, welcome to TD, and please give some thought to how much more respect you will receive if you make the effort to say things in a way that invites debate, not argument.

#15 Chance

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:11 PM

I personally felt that Gardy Vavra and Anderson should have left after last season. I like them as people and I would hope that another team would give Gardy a chance to manage in the future. I just personally felt that when you are washing the slate clean in the system and wating on talent that it would have been a good time to change the environment and the coaching direction. It didn't happen. I will live with it and hope for a big turnaround so we won't have to have this debate next offseason.

But it should be said that there is no reason to let people go a few days before spring training games.

#16 josecordoba

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:17 PM

1. Why would you fire a GM and Manager at the Start of Spring Training?
2. If firing Gardy and Ryan will avoid 100 Losses? What's a reasonable win expectation for the talent on-hand?
3. What would be a reasonable expectation for the Twins Payroll? How many games would they then be expected to Win?
4. What about Ryan's GM Ability compared to the 00's makes you think he can't produce another winner? Did Gardy forget how to manage since winning Six Division Titles?

I'm not sure if this is trolling (I don't think it is). I'm a bit confused on Ryan criticism unless one happens to blame him for the randomness of Playoff Performance. I guess the case for Gardy could be a bit blurrier (I tend to be skeptical that he's the issue). Perhaps someone could convince me otherwise. I tend to be more analytical in thinking the most reactionary position tends to be the worst. That's just me though.

#17 Thrylos

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:25 PM

Seriously:

Ronnie's W-L record with the Twins is worse than Chilly's record with the Vikes. Seriously. And I am not talking post-season. Just regular season. One of these two became the Manager of the Millennium ™ because a totally sucky team (and TK was at the helm when the turn happened in 2000) happened to be mediocre while he was at the helm (other than the last 2 seasons, in which the team sucked more than it ever did in 2 seasons in a row) while the other one was ran out of town because a mediocre team could not make it to the Superbowl.

The last time the Twins won was in 1991. Then 'roid A's happened, strike in 94 happened and TR happened. And the team hasn't won for 21 years

Gee... how unspeakable to ask for the removal of the people who are ru(i)nning this team...


(and yeah, it is Molitor and not Moliter or whatever the OP said up there, but what matters more is that TR said that this Hall of Famer is not "a good fit" to be a coach for this team, while he got Steinbach to be a bench coach after he coached his son's little league team to a championship... Really.)

Edited by Thrylos, 20 February 2013 - 08:30 PM.

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#18 kryptik

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:36 PM

9/10 on the troll job.

If you hadn't said "lol" in your third post you would've had a perfect score from me.

#19 glunn

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:37 PM

Seriously:

Ronnie's W-L record with the Twins is worse than Chilly's record with the Vikes. Seriously. And I am not talking post-season. Just regular season. One of these two became the Manager of the Millennium ™ because a totally sucky team (and TK was at the helm when the turn happened in 2000) happened to be mediocre while he was at the helm (other than the last 2 seasons, in which the team sucked more than it ever did in 2 seasons in a row) while the other one was ran out of town because a mediocre team could not make it to the Superbowl.

The last time the Twins won was in 1991. Then 'roid A's happened, strike in 94 happened and TR happened. And the team hasn't won for 21 years

Gee... how unspeakable to ask for the removal of the people who are ru(i)nning this team...


(and yeah, it is Molitor and not Moliter or whatever the OP said up there, but what matters more is that TR said that this Hall of Famer is not "a good fit" to be a coach for this team, while he got Steinbach to be a bench coach after he coached his son's little league team to a championship... Really.)


Your points all seem valid to me, my friend. It seems to me that the objections relate mainly to the tone of the original post and to the idea that the timing would be bad if they were fired now, at the outset of spring training.

As for whether they should be fired at a more opportune time, I expect that there will be a lot of debate as the season progresses and that you will, as always, make arguments that are thought provoking.

#20 Thrylos

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

Your points all seem valid to me, my friend. It seems to me that the objections relate mainly to the tone of the original post and to the idea that the timing would be bad if they were fired now, at the outset of spring training.

As for whether they should be fired at a more opportune time, I expect that there will be a lot of debate as the season progresses and that you will, as always, make arguments that are thought provoking.


I stand corrected, my friend (why do I feel like I am in a conclave? ;) ) I got it that the "Now" on the title was the cause of most of the objection. Wish it were "yesterday", which would had been more passable albeit less "immediate" and more "nonsensical" in February 2013. What needed to happen after 2012 did not happen. Hope that the Twins win it all in 2013, like all of us here and that there is a parade down University Avenue in October (hope they have that there too).
But
if that does not happen and they suck, they have to go. Period.
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#21 LaBombo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:03 PM

...Bill Smith made some bad decisions...


I would say that the outcome of Smith's tenure was virtually indistinguishable from sabotage, but I don't want to incur the wrath of a weepy demand for apology like the one in another thread questioning the competence of the front office.

Instead, let's just say that Seth's praising of Smith with faint damns reminded me of Simpsons creator Matt Groening's Life in Hell classic:

Posted Image

#22 drjim

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:09 PM

And the Bill Smith looked so respectable up until the 6th inning of game 1 of the 2010 divisional series...

Firing Terry Ryan less than two years into his cleanup job seems a little rash.
Papers...business papers.

#23 drjim

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:09 PM

I would say that the outcome of Smith's tenure was virtually indistinguishable from sabotage, but I don't want to incur the wrath of a weepy demand for apology like the one in another thread questioning the competence of the front office.

Instead, let's just say that Seth's praising of Smith with faint damns reminded me of Simpsons creator Matt Groening's Life in Hell classic:

Posted Image


Awesome.
Papers...business papers.

#24 TheLeviathan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:19 PM

I wouldn't say Smith's run was total catastrophe. It bears repeating that most all the pieces we are excited about for the future came during his tenure. I'm not convinced Ryan would've signed Sano, for example. Lots of mistakes, but that shouldn't prevent us from overlooking the positives.

#25 josecordoba

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:22 PM

Seriously:

Ronnie's W-L record with the Twins is worse than Chilly's record with the Vikes. Seriously. And I am not talking post-season. Just regular season. One of these two became the Manager of the Millennium ™ because a totally sucky team (and TK was at the helm when the turn happened in 2000) happened to be mediocre while he was at the helm (other than the last 2 seasons, in which the team sucked more than it ever did in 2 seasons in a row) while the other one was ran out of town because a mediocre team could not make it to the Superbowl.

The last time the Twins won was in 1991. Then 'roid A's happened, strike in 94 happened and TR happened. And the team hasn't won for 21 years

Gee... how unspeakable to ask for the removal of the people who are ru(i)nning this team...


(and yeah, it is Molitor and not Moliter or whatever the OP said up there, but what matters more is that TR said that this Hall of Famer is not "a good fit" to be a coach for this team, while he got Steinbach to be a bench coach after he coached his son's little league team to a championship... Really.)


1. Gardy has a much better winning percentage then Tom Kelly. Gardy also has a better winning percentage then Joe Maddon, Jim Leyland, Bruce Bochy. .Should Maddon be fired? To evaluate Managers purely on Winning Percentage is silly.
BTW- Childress firing was more about lockerroom mutiny (Not a real comparable situation-that I know)

2. The Twins haven't won the World Series for 21 years. This is true. But I think it should also be stated that a successful season doesn't always end with a World Series. Making the Playoffs is a successful season. Winning 90 games is a successful season. Billy Beane has never Won a World Series, neither has Andrew Friedman nor Jon Daniels. Perhaps GM's should only be given a certain time-frame to win a World Series. I just disagree with the notion that this is the sole measure of a GM's effectiveness.

#26 PseudoSABR

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:23 PM

Gardy's on a one year contract; the writing is on the wall. Consider how little the team spent on winning in 2013. TR, with some help from BS, has taken a bottom feeding Minor system and turned it into a top 5.

#27 jimbo92107

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

Aside from the inflammatory title and personal attacks, I disagree with both the premise and the solutions offered by the author.

First, why did the Twins lose almost 100 games two years in a row? Injuries, aging stars, bad luck, and the inevitable dip in talent level when a middle market team drafts in the lower half of the first round for several years. If your budget isn't $200 million dollars, you can't replenish your roster by simply whipping out the checkbook and signing a CC Sabbathia or an A-Roid any time you want. A middle market team needs to develop most of its talent from within its minor league system.

Second, how much of the bad fortune can be blamed on Gardenhire and Ryan? Aren't these the same guys in charge when the Twins were winning division titles? This is like blaming a ship captain because the tide went down.

Third, will bringing in Molitor and some other GM make the tide go up? No, of course not. Hicks, Benson, Arcia, Rosario, etc, will arrive no matter who's in charge, and then the team will get better, no matter who's in charge.

I will grant that the current bandage approach probably won't work. When your pool of possible pitchers looks like a Tommy John encounter group, the probability that you will field a good staff of starters doesn't look very promising. Just like the last two seasons, the long-shot 'if's' are piling up so high that the chances of the Twins making it to the post-season are slim.

However, once you acknowledge the inevitability of these large swings in talent level for mid market teams, then you realize we're in one now, and you realize that if you're going to remain a Twins fan, you'll have to be patient. If you expect your team to win its division every year, then you should buy a Yankees cap.

#28 Physics Guy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

Seriously:

Ronnie's W-L record with the Twins is worse than Chilly's record with the Vikes. Seriously. And I am not talking post-season. Just regular season. One of these two became the Manager of the Millennium ™ because a totally sucky team (and TK was at the helm when the turn happened in 2000) happened to be mediocre while he was at the helm (other than the last 2 seasons, in which the team sucked more than it ever did in 2 seasons in a row) while the other one was ran out of town because a mediocre team could not make it to the Superbowl.

The last time the Twins won was in 1991. Then 'roid A's happened, strike in 94 happened and TR happened. And the team hasn't won for 21 years

Gee... how unspeakable to ask for the removal of the people who are ru(i)nning this team...


(and yeah, it is Molitor and not Moliter or whatever the OP said up there, but what matters more is that TR said that this Hall of Famer is not "a good fit" to be a coach for this team, while he got Steinbach to be a bench coach after he coached his son's little league team to a championship... Really.)


Seriously? We are comparing baseball records to football records? The best team in baseball was 0.605 winning percentage. Chicago didn't make the playoffs in the NFL last year at 10-6 (.625). If you want to argue that Gardy should be fired you need to come up with a better comparison.

Sparky Anderson .545 Win %
Whitey Herzog .532
Tommy Lasorda .526
Gardenhire .523

#29 Physics Guy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

By the way, big difference:

Chilly 39-35 (.527) vs Gardy at .523

Gardy in playoffs 6/11 seasons, where a smaller percentage of teams make it in.
Chilly 2/5

#30 glunn

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:13 PM

I wouldn't say Smith's run was total catastrophe. It bears repeating that most all the pieces we are excited about for the future came during his tenure. I'm not convinced Ryan would've signed Sano, for example. Lots of mistakes, but that shouldn't prevent us from overlooking the positives.


You make a very interesting point about Sano. I wish that the "like" buttons were working today.