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Souhan: Being A Twins Fan Requires Patience

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#1 John Bonnes

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 05:47 PM

The Twins couldn't have spun things better themselves. And I mean that as a compliment. Souhan argues that Terry Ryan and the Twins are solely focused on the future, even if he won't admit it.

The Twins' unwillingness to spend more money on this year's team is a signal that Ryan doesn't think this team is one player away from winning, whether he'll admit it or not. Think of this year not as 2011, when the Twins fell apart, but as 1999-2000, when Ryan began feeding playing time to his best young players while accepting the losses that followed.


Through this lens, the year's blunderous free agent pitching strategy doesn't look that important. In fact, it looks like side concern, because the priority needed to be getting young players. (In fact, one could argue it's even a decent strategy, as it leads to a higher draft pick.)

I'm still dissappointed in the free agent strategy this offseason, and I think Ryan really blew it on a couple of moves, but Souhan's paradigm is an enticing one.

Souhan: Forbearance serves Twins and their fans well | StarTribune.com

#2 Willihammer

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 05:50 PM

They aren't mutually exclusive

#3 ThePuck

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:15 PM

Wow..he might as well work for the Twin PR department...there has been a full load of carp coming out of the Star Tribune lately...this one dares to tell people how to be fans....and labels certain fans...nouveau.

#4 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

All right, who slipped the Twins Kool Aid into Souhan's morning coffee. Fess up.

I do not understand the whole "Yeah we suck now, but that's OK, because we've got these great prospects who will be able to help us in a year. Or two. Or maybe three." Souhan can point to the '99-00 Twins, I can point to the Royals and Pirates of the last 20 years.

Howard Sinker had it right. Building for 2015 is great. Refusing to build a bridge to 2015 is unacceptable. Why would we as fans tolerate the Twins' refusal to put a quality team on the field? What other business says to its customers "Yeah, we know our product sucks. We've got some great improvements planned, but they won't really make it to production for another 2-3 years. Still we expect you to keep buying from us until then." It's ludicrous.

Especially in this division. A couple of other decent, reliable players could really have made a difference in the outlook this year. But instead, we're going in with question marks all over the place, and it's not likely the answers will all be in our favor.

#5 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:36 PM

Through this lens, the year's blunderous free agent pitching strategy doesn't look that important. In fact, it looks like side concern, because the priority needed to be getting young players. (In fact, one could argue it's even a decent strategy, as it leads to a higher draft pick.)


Failure begets failure. It's not so easy to get young prospects accustomed to losing to suddenly become winners when the front office says, "okay, now we'll try and win."
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#6 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:36 PM

The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.

#7 jokin

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:42 PM

The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.


Yeah, but then, collectively as this generation of fans, we couldn't have been educated and lectured to on the extreme value of "forbearance". What a load of excrement, as Souhan hits another new low.

#8 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:04 PM

The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.


Wow Brock, never thought I'd see you join the ranks of the mouth breathers crew on this site but you just gave it a good shot. Carroll has no trade value and is much better then any internal option, they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers, I wouldn't be shocked if he was traded later this year and plus, the twins can compete in 2014 when he is still under contract. Perkins is still young and could be a big piece moving forward, unless you wanna go out and overpay for a closer when the Twins do compete again.

iMO the only terrible decision made this off season was giving Corrieia the 2nd year. But at least that is only 5 mil

#9 TheLeviathan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers,


Source?

#10 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

[quote name='Brock Beauchamp']The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Ultima Ratio']Failure begets failure. It's not so easy to get young prospects accustomed to losing to suddenly become winners when the front office says, "okay, now we'll try and win."[/QUOTE]
Are you serious? Have you followed baseball for long? Rebuilding is a part of it, young prospects are going to be hungry to kick ass regardless, not just to "win" but to keep playing for that big contract down the road and even to keep their major league paycheck. The idea that a rebuilding team will teach young prospects to "not win" is simply absurd and has no historical basis to back that up.

#11 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

[quote name='Brock Beauchamp']The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='TheLeviathan']Source?[/QUOTE]
Numerous mlbtraderumor posts that stated such, and then stated that the twins couldn't get much in return at the current time for him (I believe one GM was quoted as them only being able to get a back end rotation type back for him, which we certainly don't have enough of currently!)

#12 PseudoSABR

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.

You're being pretty assumptious that the guys you mention would receive maximum value this offseason. All those guys can still be traded.

#13 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:16 PM

Are you serious? Have you followed baseball for long? Rebuilding is a part of it, young prospects are going to be hungry to kick ass regardless, not just to "win" but to keep playing for that big contract down the road and even to keep their major league paycheck. The idea that a rebuilding team will teach young prospects to "not win" is simply absurd and has no historical basis to back that up.


If the strategy is to really go after that first pick, then why not really try and put rookies out there, up and down? That will get you the most losses and the first pick.

The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.
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#14 ThePuck

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.


They don't have our braintrust or our manager :-)

#15 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:20 PM

They don't have our braintrust or our manager :-)


Nor a super cohesive, quiet clubhouse -- I'd bet.

Edited by Ultima Ratio, 11 February 2013 - 10:23 PM.

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#16 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:27 PM

If the strategy is to really go after that first pick, then why not really try and put rookies out there, up and down? That will get you the most losses and the first pick.

The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.


Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.

#17 ThePuck

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:36 PM

Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.


The GM won them 8 division titles in 8 years? The GM? First, your info is incorrect. They didn't win 5 division titles in 8 years while he was in charge. Second, he was in charge the first time 14 years...why not include it all?

Edited by ThePuck, 11 February 2013 - 10:41 PM.


#18 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:36 PM

Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.


Fair enough, but I was responding to Bonnes assertion that the quizzical signings this winter were, perhaps, a good strategy to try and get higher picks. I would think that the players, though recognizing that these are rebuilding years, would be pretty pissed that the strategy for this year is to go battle your tails off, just no too much that we win a bunch of games. I think that's a blow to morale longer term and the kind of damage to a team's culture and competitiveness that could lead to stagnation and apathy that takes some real rooting out.
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#19 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:39 PM

The GM won them 8 division titles in 8 years? The GM? First, your info is incorrect. They didn't win 5 division titles in 8 years while he was in charge. Second, the players win.

They won those division titles with the team he put together through draft/trades etc. Once he left **** started to goto hell, see: Johan trade, Garza trade etc

Second your argument that "the players win" is ****ing retarded: So what you are saying is: When the team sucks it's the GMS fault, but when the team is good its the players that win, and the GM has nothing to do with it??

#20 ThePuck

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:43 PM

They won those division titles with the team he put together through draft/trades etc. Once he left **** started to goto hell, see: Johan trade, Garza trade etc

Second your argument that "the players win" is ****ing retarded: So what you are saying is: When the team sucks it's the GMS fault, but when the team is good its the players that win, and the GM has nothing to do with it??


So why not include his whole body of work? 14 years the first time...took him 9 seasons to win his first division

And I took out the 'players win thing' because yes, he deserves SOME credit for the winning (not all) and SOME of the fault for the losing as well .

But I do like the '****retarded' comment...so grown up.

BTW, I'm sure you'll give Smith some credit too since many of our best prospects were brought in under his watch...

Edited by ThePuck, 11 February 2013 - 10:47 PM.


#21 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:44 PM

Fair enough, but I was responding to Bonnes assertion that the quizzical signings this winter were, perhaps, a good strategy to try and get higher picks. I would think that the players, though recognizing that these are rebuilding years, would be pretty pissed that the strategy for this year is to go battle your tails off, just no too much that we win a bunch of games. I think that's a blow to morale longer term and the kind of damage to a team's culture and competitiveness that could lead to stagnation and apathy that takes some real rooting out.

These players are professional players who get paid a lot of money for what they do, yes sometimes you have crappy seasons but I imagine any of the guys signed for longer then this year understand the plan, and even if they don't its in their best personal interest to play as hard as possible to win every game.

Need an example? Look no further then the 1990 and 1991 Minnesota Twins, finishing in last place didn't seem to destroy the 91 Twins morale to much, ya know?

#22 TheLeviathan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:47 PM

Numerous mlbtraderumor posts that stated such, and then stated that the twins couldn't get much in return at the current time for him (I believe one GM was quoted as them only being able to get a back end rotation type back for him, which we certainly don't have enough of currently!)


I followed that pretty closely because I felt we were really missing out on an opportunity and I never heard any such thing. He was shopped, but all we know is that the Twins felt they didn't get good value. But I never read anything about what those offers were.

#23 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:47 PM

So why not include his whole body of work? 14 years the first time...

And I took out the 'players win thing' because yes, he deserves SOME credit for the winning (not all) and SOME of the fault for the losing as well .

But I do like the '****retarded' comment...so grown up


Fine, 5 division titles in 14 years, still a hell of a lot better then what the Royals and Pirates have done, no?

Try to re-fraise/back away from your orginal comment all you want, after you get called out on it. As you said before "the players win", so stick by it champ.

And yes it was a ****ing "stupid" comment. I apologize for using the word retarded, it was inappropriate. But it certainly was stupid.

#24 ThePuck

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

Fine, 5 division titles in 14 years, still a hell of a lot better then what the Royals and Pirates have done, no?

Try to re-fraise/back away from your orginal comment all you want, after you get called out on it. As you said before "the players win", so stick by it champ.

And yes it was a ****ing "stupid" comment. I apologize for using the word retarded, it was inappropriate. But it certainly was stupid.


well, 5 division titles in 14 years if you extend two more years out...16. Heck, why not give him credit for 2010 too. Right after 2009.

I backed away from it before you 'called me on it'...before I ever read your post...so don't flatter yourself. Believe me, nothing you say will make me feel bad about what I write. I though it was dumb of me to say so I changed it. Notice I didn't deny saying it..

Edited by ThePuck, 11 February 2013 - 10:51 PM.


#25 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

I followed that pretty closely because I felt we were really missing out on an opportunity and I never heard any such thing. He was shopped, but all we know is that the Twins felt they didn't get good value. But I never read anything about what those offers were.


It came out that an opposing GM said Willinghams value was that of a back end rotation guy, because most teams (like most of us fans) realized that Willingham was very unlikely to duplicate his excellent 2012 moving forward. Plus the guy has very little defensive value and injury issues. I can try to look up the exact quote later, but it was certainly featured on MLBtraderumors and discussed here at the time I believe.

Also FWIW: I think Ryan in his past stint and this off-season has shown how he is at least good at gauging correct value for trade targets, I think most of us are happy with the hauls for Span and certainly Revere, why not at least give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to trading additional veterans? (Especially when everyone is going to crucify him for everything else)

#26 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

well, 5 division titles in 14 years if you extend two more years out...16. Heck, why not give him credit for 2010 too. Right after 2009.

I backed away from it before you 'called me on it'...before I ever read your post...so don't flatter yourself. Believe me, nothing you say will make me feel bad about what I write

Frame it however you want champ, its still not as dumb as comparing the Twins organization to that of the Pirates or Royals.

#27 TheLeviathan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:54 PM

I can try to look up the exact quote later, but it was certainly featured on MLBtraderumors and discussed here at the time I believe.


Never saw any such thing. I have trouble believing that quite frankly. I don't doubt Ryan's ability to gauge the value he is getting in return for a trade - I question how hard he was looking. I think he sees Willingham as a "core" guy that they aren't all that interested in moving.

#28 ThePuck

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Frame it however you want champ, its still not as dumb as comparing the Twins organization to that of the Pirates or Royals.


Alright champ...I'm sure your faith in Ryan will be confirmed when they win 90+ games...as you're predicting...

#29 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:58 PM

Never saw any such thing. I have trouble believing that quite frankly. I don't doubt Ryan's ability to gauge the value he is getting in return for a trade - I question how hard he was looking. I think he sees Willingham as a "core" guy that they aren't all that interested in moving.

Nov 9th MLB trade rumors:

The Twins might not receive much more than a No. 4 starter in exchange for Josh Willingham, an AL executive tells Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities Radio. "There's no doubt Josh has a very good contract, but I really doubt a team would trade a viable starting pitcher for a guy with a strong bat but who is limited defensively," the executive said. "It's a lot easier to find a left-field or DH-type than to trade a good starting pitcher for one and then have to backfill the rotation spot." The 33-year-old Willingham is owed $14MM through 2014 and posted an .890 OPS last season, but another AL executive says Denard Span is a better trade chip for Minnesota.

Read more at Josh Willingham Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com


#30 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:59 PM

Alright champ...I'm sure your faith in Ryan will be confirmed when they win 90+ games...as you're predicting...


I'm not predicting they will win 90 games... I voted and commented on that as an obvious snark/joke.