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#1 darin617

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

I guess $1.5M for Jason Frasor was too much for the Twins. Must be nice to be the Rangers who can just a RP like it's no big thing. Lucky for the Twins we have Duensing, Swarzak, and Burnett. Case closed bullpen is solid.

#2 ashburyjohn

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

He strikes out too many people.

#3 PseudoSABR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

Evidently, 1.5 million was too expensive for everyone else too. These kind of threads are just vapid; do we really need to complain every time another team signs a player that the Twins might be able to use.

#4 jokin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:29 PM

Evidently, 1.5 million was too expensive for everyone else too. These kind of threads are just vapid; do we really need to complain every time another team signs a player that the Twins might be able to use.


Yes.

Do you really want to defend the status quo of the proven mediocrities, or worse, that the Twins constantly recycle?

The Twins should be actively seeking every possible avenue for improvement with "major league arms" or at least possibly better than what is represented on the Twins current depth chart- face it, this is a pretty bare roster going into 2013, especially in the pitching department, and the Twins have made little effort to take advantage of their downtrodden situation.

#5 nicksaviking

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:43 PM

He hasn't been overly effective the last sesason and a half, I don't think that contract is as much of a bargain as it would have been in 2010. Still if you're of mind that Correia and/or Pelfry will end up in the pen, he would have been a much smarter move.

#6 70charger

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

Yes.

Do you really want to defend the status quo of the proven mediocrities, or worse, that the Twins constantly recycle?

The Twins should be actively seeking every possible avenue for improvement with "major league arms" or at least possibly better than what is represented on the Twins current depth chart- face it, this is a pretty bare roster going into 2013, especially in the pitching department, and the Twins have made little effort to take advantage of their downtrodden situation.


Seriously? We really need to complain about every free agent that signs somewhere else? Seriously?

So either the Twins will sign nearly every free agent out there, or we will be complaining a lot. Given the general tone around here lately, I'll put my money on the latter.

#7 kab21

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

Complaining about complainers...

I think Frasor would have been an excellent signing for the Twins. This is obviously a case where a team like the Twins would have to offer more money but he would be a good deal even at 2/4. You see a lot of very avg RP'ers getting 5+M (hello Capps) but being able to get a good 7th/8th inning guy for 2M (or less) is a pretty good deal and there isn't a lot of depth in the bullpen particularly if the Twins can make a nice deadline deal for Perkins or Burton.

#8 TheLeviathan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:39 PM

If you're not going to spend your money in big splashes, then why aren't they grabbing bullpen arms? It's not like there is a surplus of riches in the pen either. Plus they tend to make excellent trade bait if successful.

#9 darin617

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:59 PM

Evidently, 1.5 million was too expensive for everyone else too. These kind of threads are just vapid; do we really need to complain every time another team signs a player that the Twins might be able to use.


We don't have to complain if we are happy competing with the Astros and the other cellar dwelling MLB teams.

Just wait when next seasons payroll is close to $55M or so without Morneau and Willingham after he is dealt.

I hate to say this but Hostess may have closed its doors because they felt insulted when people referred to our Minnesota Twins as the Twinkies. Oops did I just type that and press send? Oh well...

#10 Brad Swanson

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:28 PM

We don't have to complain if we are happy competing with the Astros and the other cellar dwelling MLB teams.

Just wait when next seasons payroll is close to $55M or so without Morneau and Willingham after he is dealt.

I hate to say this but Hostess may have closed its doors because they felt insulted when people referred to our Minnesota Twins as the Twinkies. Oops did I just type that and press send? Oh well...


Oh snap! When Terry Ryan does his daily comb through these forums and reads that barb, he'll probably fall out of his chair.

#11 jokin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:20 PM

Seriously? We really need to complain about every free agent that signs somewhere else? Seriously?

So either the Twins will sign nearly every free agent out there, or we will be complaining a lot. Given the general tone around here lately, I'll put my money on the latter.


Another defender of the year-after-year mediocrity that is Burnett, Swarzak, Capps, Walters, Gray.....et al, is heard from. Obviously, you are taking the extreme position, but there was money to inexpensively upgrade; solid relief pitchers are always available cheaply on one-year deals and the Twins BP would get a huge shot in the arm from the agressive signing/claiming of the Jason Frasor's of the world- plus, If Frasor matches his nearly 11 K/9 record of 2012 with a decent FIP, he is a marketable commodity to flip.

The team has lost 99 and 96 games in two straight seasons- the defense was significantly gutted for 2013 and a new-and-disimproved, "revamped" pitching staff- the majority of whom qualified as mediocrities, has-beens, never-weres, raw rookies and rehabbing crap shoots. When is the time to complain, if not now?

I had to chuckle at a couple of the TD writers who were fretting during the season about exposing certain players who were potentially threatened off the 40-man roster to waiver claims. In virtually every single case, no one wanted them. There is a reason why mediocrity reigns in Twinsland and even those that closely follow this mess are inured to that reality.

Edited by jokin, 03 January 2013 - 09:32 PM.


#12 twinsnorth49

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:27 PM

Yes.

Do you really want to defend the status quo of the proven mediocrities, or worse, that the Twins constantly recycle?

The Twins should be actively seeking every possible avenue for improvement with "major league arms" or at least possibly better than what is represented on the Twins current depth chart- face it, this is a pretty bare roster going into 2013, especially in the pitching department, and the Twins have made little effort to take advantage of their downtrodden situation.


That's way too much feigned outrage on not signing Jason Frasor.

#13 darin617

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

Oh snap! When Terry Ryan does his daily comb through these forums and reads that barb, he'll probably fall out of his chair.


I'm glad I made your day with my comment.
Attached File  twinkie-the-kid-e1329370891283.jpg   9.85KB   1 downloads

#14 PseudoSABR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:52 PM

Do you really want to defend the status quo of the proven mediocrities, or worse, that the Twins constantly recycle?

May and Meyer (and Worley) fly in the face of such inane rhetoric. We've also signed Harden and Pelfry in exactly these kind of moves (that naysayers for years cry "why don't we take a chance on on somebody like Rich Harden! " Well, we just did). So what, the Twins didn't like Frasor; maybe they even had good reason.

My sense is that the Twins are looking for cheap ML innings to basically tread water until the next core group emerges in the majors. I think it's perfectly legitimate to bemoan that the Twins could do more to compete in 2013, but signing Frasor or Guthrie or Blanton or McCarthy or Feldman probably doesn't really make the Twins much more competitive (if at all) than the signings they've made. So it's hard for me to blame the Twins for not spending the money (even if it isnt mine, and they are under budget).

Edited by PseudoSABR, 03 January 2013 - 11:02 PM.


#15 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:05 PM

It's threads like this that make this entire forum a disaster to read in the off-season.

The Twins have plenty of bullpen options for next year, including wonder boy Slama as well as guys like Harden who could slot in quite nicely into the bullpen. I would have liked a Frasor signing, but it's not worth blasting the org over, Jesus Christ.

I still kinda hope we can resign Capps to a one year/1 mil deal personally, he is frustrating, but I think he could be a nice 6th/7th inning guy next year for us.

#16 TheLeviathan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:08 PM

My sense is that the Twins are looking for cheap ML innings to basically tread water until the next core group emerges in the majors. I think it's perfectly legitimate to bemoan that the Twins could do more to compete in 2013, but signing Frasor or Guthrie or Blanton or McCarthy or Feldman probably doesn't really make the Twins much more competitive (if at all) than the signings they've made. So it's hard for me to blame the Twins for not spending the money (even if it isnt mine, and they are under budget).


You seem to be intentionally avoiding a very simple notion. It's always better to have more talent. No one is arguing these players magically make them a world series contender, but when you are between 20-30% under budget, some flyers aren't a bad idea. Even if they only marginally improve your team immediately, they represent possible trade value if handled properly and things go well. If the chips are truly in the hands of the next wave, why not add placeholders that also can be moved for further assistance for that next wave?

#17 old nurse

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:35 PM

You seem to be intentionally avoiding a very simple notion. It's always better to have more talent. No one is arguing these players magically make them a world series contender, but when you are between 20-30% under budget, some flyers aren't a bad idea. Even if they only marginally improve your team immediately, they represent possible trade value if handled properly and things go well. If the chips are truly in the hands of the next wave, why not add placeholders that also can be moved for further assistance for that next wave?


While it would be nice to have someone who strikes out a batter once an inning or more, it is a disaster waiting to happen when he gives up on average 3 hits or walks every two innings.

#18 ThePuck

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

He strikes out too many people.


I was gonna say the same thing yesterday, but I thought I'd let that one go...but since you said it, you get a like :-)

#19 snepp

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

Teams that strike more guys out don't give up fewer runs than low strikeout teams anyway, right?



Right???
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#20 Rosterman

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

Bring Back Jon Rauch!
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#21 jokin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:53 AM

May and Meyer (and Worley) fly in the face of such inane rhetoric. We've also signed Harden and Pelfry in exactly these kind of moves (that naysayers for years cry "why don't we take a chance on on somebody like Rich Harden! " Well, we just did). So what, the Twins didn't like Frasor; maybe they even had good reason.

My sense is that the Twins are looking for cheap ML innings to basically tread water until the next core group emerges in the majors. I think it's perfectly legitimate to bemoan that the Twins could do more to compete in 2013, but signing Frasor or Guthrie or Blanton or McCarthy or Feldman probably doesn't really make the Twins much more competitive (if at all) than the signings they've made. So it's hard for me to blame the Twins for not spending the money (even if it isnt mine, and they are under budget).


Go ahead, continue your own rhetorical inanities in defending the status quo. You always conveniently miss the point about building for now- and for the future- as the critical component in running a successful and fanworthy franchise. You do get the fact that the odds that both May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50% and are still slated for rotation-impact in 2015, right? Not that these moves are a mistake, but the Twins need to be contemplating every potentially available talent as a cost-effective move at rebuilding their woeful franchise pitching depth. When considering the 2013/14 bullpen, is it that difficult to see that most of the projected SPs are coming off of injuries and need every bit of bullpen-bolstering possible? Beyond Perkins, Burton and Fien may suffer some regression, Duensing's role is uncertain and the rest are below replacement level.

Your sense about the Twins is right, in one sense, they ARE looking to be CHEAP instead of PENNY-WISE. Signing actual talent is vastly better stewardship of dollars than the Twins alternate solution (the one which you are obviously applauding with your "non-inane Rhetoric") of the Marquis-of-the-month or Maloney/Zumaya-flyer, coupled with proven mediocrity repeats like Burnett/Swarzack and mediocrity acquisitions.

Edited by jokin, 04 January 2013 - 12:09 PM.


#22 jokin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:08 PM

It's threads like this that make this entire forum a disaster to read in the off-season.

The Twins have plenty of bullpen options????? for next year, including wonder boy Slama as well as guys like Harden who could slot in quite nicely into the bullpen. I would have liked a Frasor signing, but it's not worth blasting the org over, Jesus Christ.

I still kinda hope we can resign Capps to a one year/1 mil deal personally, he is frustrating, but I think he could be a nice 6th/7th inning guy next year for us.


Yes, all is well with the organization according to the status quo fellas.

If I may translate "the message" of the Daves:

Invoke the higher power and admonish the other side to stop blasting them for not being more agressive in trying to improve their current trainwreck status, you louts who demand change, you guys are the "DISASTER", certainly not the Twins management and ownership!

Capps redux, yes Capps (sigh) . The Twins FO has demonstrated they have absolutely no confidence that Slama will ever be a long-term contributor as a Twin, and here's a guy that has demonstrated he can consistently do in the majors what Slama does in the minors and the Twins aren't willing to take a chance for a pittance over the minimum, wth a chance to flip, besides. Harden? Harden has 13 warm-up pitches and permanent retirement written all over him (Zumaya redux).

#23 Boom Boom

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

Bring Back Jon Rauch!


After he was gone, I heard somewhere that Gardy and Rauch didn't get along so well. Probably stemming from the fact that Rauch was demoted from his job in favor of Proven Closer Matt Capps.\

Nobody's signed Cappy yet, by the way. There's your big BP addition.

#24 twinsnorth49

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

Go head, continue your own rhetorical inanities in defending the status quo. You always conveniently miss the point about building for now- and for the future- as the critical component in running a successful and fanworthy franchise. You do get the fact that the odds that both May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50% and are still slated for rotation-impact in 2015, right? Not that these moves are a mistake, but the Twins need to be contemplating every potentially available talent as a cost-effective move at rebuilding their woeful franchise pitching depth. When considering the 2013/14 bullpen, is it that difficult to see that most of the projected SPs are coming off of injuries and need every bit of bullpen-bolstering possible? Beyond Perkins, Burton and Fien may suffer some regression, Duensing's role is uncertain and the rest are below replacement level.

Your sense about the Twins is right, in one sense, they ARE looking to be CHEAP instead of PENNY-WISE. Signing actual talent is vastly better stewardship of dollars than the Twins alternate solution (the one which you are obviously applauding with your "non-inane Rhetoric") of the Marquis-of-the-month or Maloney/Zumaya-flyer, coupled with proven mediocrity repeats like Burnett/Swarzack and mediocrity acquisitions.


Wow, every response from you is like some kind of personal manifesto.

#25 ThePuck

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

After he was gone, I heard somewhere that Gardy and Rauch didn't get along so well. Probably stemming from the fact that Rauch was demoted from his job in favor of Proven Closer Matt Capps.\

Nobody's signed Cappy yet, by the way. There's your big BP addition.


It was weird. In 2010, before they got Capps, we only lost ONE game in which Rauch was brought in for the save. In that game, he gave up one run and he didn't get the loss.

#26 jokin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

While it would be nice to have someone who strikes out a batter once an inning or more, it is a disaster waiting to happen when he gives up on average 3 hits or walks every two innings.


Except, Frasor's LOB% was over 80% in 2011 and nearly that high again in 2012. Only 2 guys on the Twins were anywhere close to that number. K's will help you do that, ie, keep those disasters waiting to happen to continue "waiting". Give me more Frasors over Swarzacks and Burnetts all day.

#27 jokin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:22 PM

Wow, every response from you is like some kind of personal manifesto.


Uhhh...."Thankyou"?

#28 old nurse

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:42 PM

Except, Frasor's LOB% was over 80% in 2011 and nearly that high again in 2012. Only 2 guys on the Twins were anywhere close to that number. K's will help you do that, ie, keep those disasters waiting to happen to continue "waiting". Give me more Frasors over Swarzacks and Burnetts all day.

More on base to be left there.
Wouldn't it be better to target higher skill level relievers than Frasor, Brunett, or Swarzak? Swarzak was used more as a long reliever/spot starter, so to compare him and Frasor is not right. The comparable pitcher to Frasor would be Fien. Fien was more effective than Frasor. Brunett would be more of a development player. Ryan Pressly is probably the competition for Brunett. I don't see it as a terribly exciting competition.

Edited by old nurse, 04 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.


#29 PseudoSABR

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

You do get the fact that the odds thatboth May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50%

You can't just make up **** up and call it a fact. People will stop taking you seriously if they already haven't.

You really don't have any basis for your distinction between cheap and penny-wise--it's just your opinion.

And sure, Corriea is a status quo signing, so flame away, but to generalize that the Twins are maintaining the status quo when they just traded two of their CFers that were under team control for years for three legitimate, young pitchers is asinine. You seem ideological predisposed against the Twins.

#30 PseudoSABR

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:12 PM

You seem to be intentionally avoiding a very simple notion. It's always better to have more talent. No one is arguing these players magically make them a world series contender, but when you are between 20-30% under budget, some flyers aren't a bad idea. Even if they only marginally improve your team immediately, they represent possible trade value if handled properly and things go well. If the chips are truly in the hands of the next wave, why not add placeholders that also can be moved for further assistance for that next wave?

Talent is great, but if the Twins feel they can get cheaper, better talent than say Frasor (or signed pitcher of the day) who am I to fault them? There's an implication here that the Twins aren't good at identifying inexpensive talent--when in recent history the Twins have consistently found effective bullpen parts on scrap heap.

Spending money doesn't necessarily equal bringing in more talent, and there's a threshold of diminishing returns that the Twins aren't going to pass, nor should they.