Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

The Store

Photo

Time To Step Up

  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 Chance

Chance

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 535 posts

Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:28 PM

I hate to beat a dead horse but I'm going to do it anyway.

We all saw the Blue Jays make a big trade. They are taking on a lot of salary but they want to compete and they want to win. They are now rumored to be targeting another starter, such as Edwin Jackson or Zach Grienke. With almost every free agent or trade target you are sure to hear Toronto mentioned.

The Twins haven't made an impact trade or signing yet and it's discouraging. It's not that I'm impatient but since there has already been several players the Twins have been rumored to have interested in come off the board, I can't help but think that they aren't really serious about improving this team. I have the sinking feeling that they will continue to undervalue players and not she'll out what it takes to bring in quality players via trade or free agency. It is time that the owners and front office step up and pay the price to field a winner. They have to make realistic offers in trades and they need to offer a real contract to a top end free agent. It's really aggravating to see the Blue Jays doing what Twins fans want and deserve since Target Field has been built and we show up to watch the AAA guys play.

#2 old nurse

old nurse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,676 posts

Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:30 PM

Easy to spend someone else's money.
Toronto and every free agent possible is going to sign there. "Leaks" are not always truths as the faithful readers know.
Are the Twins going to set the market price or are they going to follow? Mauer's contract should be a sign they can overpay. Setting the price for pitching is going to be tricky. All it takes is one crazy team to jack the price and Chicago did that with Baker. All it takes is one team to overvalue someone and they are signed for more than they should have been. Makes it hard for the other teams to assess market price.
Will you be aggravated when the Blue Jays are a .540 team and out of the playoffs? There is nothing that says Toronto will be winning much.
Cabrera was about a .700 OPS before the steroids. Career .280 hitter. Buerle and Johnson do not project well on fan graphs. Reyes will be in a new league. There is nothing certain in Toronto

#3 Chance

Chance

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 535 posts

Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

But they are clearly making every effort possible. And not waiting for other teams to dictate what they can do. My belief is the Twins miss out on players all the time because they were about 500 thousand off the price and won't cave.

#4 glunn

glunn

    Head Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 5,101 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

But they are clearly making every effort possible. And not waiting for other teams to dictate what they can do. My belief is the Twins miss out on players all the time because they were about 500 thousand off the price and won't cave.


I suspect that you may be correct, but we have no way of knowing whether this is true. For all we know, Ryan and his people have been spending a lot of time trying to make good trades and/or trying to make deals with free agents. All we get to see are the results when they make a deal, and good deals often don't happen until January or after.

#5 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,456 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:47 AM

I hate to sound like an apologist but it's early. If mid-December rolls around and they haven't made a significant move, then I'll be concerned.

#6 glanzer

glanzer

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 224 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:02 AM

I am very impatient. I really liked some of the recent offseasons where the wheels were in motion immediately. I have to applaud our old friend Bill Smith in that regard, he was off and running as soon as the World Series ended. That Hardy-Gomez deal happened in early November... as did the infamous Garza-Young swap.

#7 Brandon

Brandon

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 759 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:36 AM

Its not so much that I am anxious to see them make moves to jump in there but It would make it easier for them and give management more leverage if they can get 1 of the starters needed signed and done cheaply. I think that is why we are upset that we lost Baker. yeah he piched solid for us but we thought he would sign quickly, cheaply filling 1 of the 3 spots so we would only need 2. We know the 2nd is likley to come via trade so we would only need to focus on 1 FA instead of 2. that is where my anxiety comes from. I am not concerned at all about the other holes the club is going to try to fill this offseason.

#8 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,456 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:40 AM

Its not so much that I am anxious to see them make moves to jump in there but It would make it easier for them and give management more leverage if they can get 1 of the starters needed signed and done cheaply. I think that is why we are upset that we lost Baker. yeah he piched solid for us but we thought he would sign quickly, cheaply filling 1 of the 3 spots so we would only need 2. We know the 2nd is likley to come via trade so we would only need to focus on 1 FA instead of 2. that is where my anxiety comes from. I am not concerned at all about the other holes the club is going to try to fill this offseason.


Yep, losing Baker stings because it meant the team had one less rotation spot to fill going into December. I fully understand why the Twins weren't interested in giving him a one year $5.5m guaranteed contract but it still hurts.

#9 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:46 AM

Easy to spend someone else's money.


Sure is. Just look at how easy it was for the Pohlads to spend a half billion of other people's money on their new stadium.

What's hard seems to be for them to spend their own money.

#10 old nurse

old nurse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,676 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:27 AM

Easy to spend someone else's money.


Sure is. Just look at how easy it was for the Pohlads to spend a half billion of other people's money on their new stadium.

What's hard seems to be for them to spend their own money.


$350 million is how much was bonded by the county. Unless you want to include the Pohlad's 125 million contribution as other people's money. Operating Target Field costs the Twins about 10 million a year and they pay 1 million in rent. No free stadium ride there.

There is a hesitance on the Twins part to pay people outside the organization. They have been more than generous within for the players. As of yet we do not know Ryan's capability to gauge free market pitching value. Marquis was a fifth starter. That is what they were looking for. This time last year a starting rotation of Liriano, Pavano, Baker, and Blackburn looked solid. Ryan did ok with replacing position players lost due to free agency.

#11 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 399 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

I hate to sound like an apologist but it's early. If mid-December rolls around and they haven't made a significant move, then I'll be concerned.


Amen to that Brock.

#12 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 399 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

Easy to spend someone else's money.


Sure is. Just look at how easy it was for the Pohlads to spend a half billion of other people's money on their new stadium.

What's hard seems to be for them to spend their own money.


Pohlads will never spend their own money to improve this team. The day they do is when pigs fly.

#13 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

[quote name='old nurse'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='old nurse']Easy to spend someone else's money.
[/QUOTE]

Sure is. Just look at how easy it was for the Pohlads to spend a half billion of other people's money on their new stadium.

What's hard seems to be for them to spend their own money.[/QUOTE]

$350 million is how much was bonded by the county. Unless you want to include the Pohlad's 125 million contribution as other people's money. Operating Target Field costs the Twins about 10 million a year and they pay 1 million in rent. No free stadium ride there.

There is a hesitance on the Twins part to pay people outside the organization. They have been more than generous within for the players. As of yet we do not know Ryan's capability to gauge free market pitching value. Marquis was a fifth starter. That is what they were looking for. This time last year a starting rotation of Liriano, Pavano, Baker, and Blackburn looked solid. Ryan did ok with replacing position players lost due to free agency.[/QUOTE]

I doubt the Pohlads put a penny of their own money into stadium construction costs. They borrowed the money, and are making payments on that loan from stadium receipts. Net out-of-pocket: zero.

The rest of your post is...not worth a reply.

#14 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

[quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='old nurse'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='old nurse']Easy to spend someone else's money.
[/QUOTE]

Sure is. Just look at how easy it was for the Pohlads to spend a half billion of other people's money on their new stadium.

What's hard seems to be for them to spend their own money.[/QUOTE]

$350 million is how much was bonded by the county. Unless you want to include the Pohlad's 125 million contribution as other people's money. Operating Target Field costs the Twins about 10 million a year and they pay 1 million in rent. No free stadium ride there.

There is a hesitance on the Twins part to pay people outside the organization. They have been more than generous within for the players. As of yet we do not know Ryan's capability to gauge free market pitching value. Marquis was a fifth starter. That is what they were looking for. This time last year a starting rotation of Liriano, Pavano, Baker, and Blackburn looked solid. Ryan did ok with replacing position players lost due to free agency.[/QUOTE]

I doubt the Pohlads put a penny of their own money into stadium construction costs. They borrowed the money, and are making payments on that loan from stadium receipts. Net out-of-pocket: zero.[/QUOTE]

So if I borrow money to buy a Ferrari and pay it back with money I earn, it doesn't really cost me anything? Posted Image

#15 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

So if I borrow money to buy a Ferrari and pay it back with money I earn, it doesn't really cost me anything? Posted Image


Not if the money you're using to pay back the loan comes from using the Ferrari itself.

And I would have no problem with even that, except if the public paid for 70% of the Ferrari up front, and you promised to pay for the rest of the Ferrari up front, out of your pocket, which you then failed to do.

Then I have a problem with it.

#16 old nurse

old nurse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,676 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:17 PM

[quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='old nurse'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='old nurse']

I doubt the Pohlads put a penny of their own money into stadium construction costs. They borrowed the money, and are making payments on that loan from stadium receipts. Net out-of-pocket: zero.

The rest of your post is...not worth a reply.[/QUOTE]

You can have an opinion. Being dismissive of reality that there are costs associated with running a club and the stadium is to ignore reality. Wether or not the Pohlads borrowed or paid for it out of pocket is irrelevant. They paid their portion. If they borrowed, it was against their assets and has to be paid at some point. For whatever limit you have of accepting that fact is truly strange.

#17 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

So if I borrow money to buy a Ferrari and pay it back with money I earn, it doesn't really cost me anything? Posted Image


Not if the money you're using to pay back the loan comes from using the Ferrari itself.

And I would have no problem with even that, except if the public paid for 70% of the Ferrari up front, and you promised to pay for the rest of the Ferrari up front, out of your pocket, which you then failed to do.

Then I have a problem with it.


What difference does it make if they paid up front or borrowed it? Either way they are either paying back the loan through stadium revenue or recouping the loss from insanely paying $150,000,000 up front to build something that will take years to pay for, from stadium revenue.

Paying for something of that magnitude up front is pretty poor use of capital and a very bad business practice. One which no smart business person would do.

#18 SweetOne69

SweetOne69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 448 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

Also, even though the Pohlad Family has a net worth of $3B, how much of that do you think is liquid? Do you think they had $150M available to pay for their share in cash out of pocket? Since their net worth is tied up in the several businesses that they own, I doubt it (At least not until Pepsi bought back their stake in the bottling company).

#19 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:50 PM

What difference does it make if they paid up front or borrowed it? Either way they are either paying back the loan through stadium revenue or recouping the loss from insanely paying $150,000,000 up front to build something that will take years to pay for, from stadium revenue.

Paying for something of that magnitude up front is pretty poor use of capital and a very bad business practice. One which no smart business person would do.


Insanely paying $150M up front?

First off, they promised to pay $150M up front. If you can't see how it makes a difference whether they borrowed the money, or invested their own funds, then look no farther than their player payroll budget. That should help illuminate it for you.

Secondly, the value of their franchise went up something on the order of $200M before the ink was dry on the stadium deal. I'm thinking any smart business person would invest $150 to make $200, or $150M to make $200M, and add in greater annual revenues to the pot in either case, by the way. Or...I guess even better...if they could get away with it...invest $0 to make $200M.

#20 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

Also, even though the Pohlad Family has a net worth of $3B, how much of that do you think is liquid? Do you think they had $150M available to pay for their share in cash out of pocket? Since their net worth is tied up in the several businesses that they own, I doubt it (At least not until Pepsi bought back their stake in the bottling company).


Is this a serious post? A family with a net worth of $3B can't come up with $150M cash?

In any case, that's not the point. Of course they can come up with the cash, but if not, why did they promise to do just that when negotiating for a new stadium?

#21 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:04 PM

But they are clearly making every effort possible. And not waiting for other teams to dictate what they can do. My belief is the Twins miss out on players all the time because they were about 500 thousand off the price and won't cave.


Clearly? How so?

#22 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

What difference does it make if they paid up front or borrowed it? Either way they are either paying back the loan through stadium revenue or recouping the loss from insanely paying $150,000,000 up front to build something that will take years to pay for, from stadium revenue.

Paying for something of that magnitude up front is pretty poor use of capital and a very bad business practice. One which no smart business person would do.


Insanely paying $150M up front?

First off, they promised to pay $150M up front. If you can't see how it makes a difference whether they borrowed the money, or invested their own funds, then look no farther than their player payroll budget. That should help illuminate it for you.

Secondly, the value of their franchise went up something on the order of $200M before the ink was dry on the stadium deal. I'm thinking any smart business person would invest $150 to make $200, or $150M to make $200M, and add in greater annual revenues to the pot in either case, by the way. Or...I guess even better...if they could get away with it...invest $0 to make $200M.


Payroll has nothing to do with them shelling out $150M up front or borrowed, it's based on projected revenue.In fact, if they ever did decide to break the bank and throw a whole bunch more money at payroll, they would be in a better position to do it with $150M sitting in the bank than buried underneath a baseball stadium, that's what banks are for, borrowing money! They didn't make $200M just because they decided to borrow the money.

And, they have to pay the money back, that's money they would otherwise have in their pocket, which they don't, which makes it out of pocket.

#23 Winston Smith

Winston Smith

    Old Geezer

  • Members
  • 1,332 posts
  • LocationOceania

Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

I'm starting to feel sorry for the Pohlads investing their own money into a mainly taxpayer paid for cash cow. I could tear up any time.

Having said that they own the team and can do what they want and spend what they want and our recourse is to stop buying tickets if we don't like it. But we can bitch on blogs if that helps.
This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

#24 SweetOne69

SweetOne69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 448 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:47 PM

What difference does it make if they paid up front or borrowed it? Either way they are either paying back the loan through stadium revenue or recouping the loss from insanely paying $150,000,000 up front to build something that will take years to pay for, from stadium revenue.

Paying for something of that magnitude up front is pretty poor use of capital and a very bad business practice. One which no smart business person would do.


Insanely paying $150M up front?

First off, they promised to pay $150M up front. If you can't see how it makes a difference whether they borrowed the money, or invested their own funds, then look no farther than their player payroll budget. That should help illuminate it for you.

Secondly, the value of their franchise went up something on the order of $200M before the ink was dry on the stadium deal. I'm thinking any smart business person would invest $150 to make $200, or $150M to make $200M, and add in greater annual revenues to the pot in either case, by the way. Or...I guess even better...if they could get away with it...invest $0 to make $200M.


I don't ever recall them ever promising to pay $150M upfront.

#25 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:25 PM

I don't ever recall them ever promising to pay $150M upfront.




http://minnesota.twi...t=.jsp&c_id=min

http://minnesota.twi...ark/new_faq.jsp

#26 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

I don't ever recall them ever promising to pay $150M upfront.




http://minnesota.twi...t=.jsp&c_id=min

http://minnesota.twi...ark/new_faq.jsp


So it's actually a $40M payment that was owed up front, that's pretty typical in order to show you can raise the capital, it's also from the Twins, not the Pohlads.

So where is the part about it having to be their own money, from their own bank account?

#27 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

What difference does it make if they paid up front or borrowed it?


They actually paid for their share of the stadium up front, using their own money = they are able to use all current revenue (minus normal other expenses such as minor leagues, travel, etc) to support player payroll (minus other normal expenses, i.e. minor leagues, travel, etc.)

They actually didn't pay a dime for the stadium up front, instead using other people's money = they first must extract loan payments from current revenues (and then take out normal other expenses) before using said revenue to support player payroll

Why else do we still hear the "52% of revenues to payroll" line? None of their other expenses (with the probable exception of revenue sharing) changed dramatically when they moved to TF. The cost of running their minor leagues didn't change. The cost of travel for the team didn't change. The cost of their other employees didn't change dramatically. Why would payroll expenditures still be "around 50-52%" of revenue?

#28 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:39 PM

So where is the part about it having to be their own money, from their own bank account?



From the Twins own site on MLB.com:


$260 million comes from Hennepin County and $152 million comes from the Pohlad family and the Twins. Initially, ownership pledged $130 million for the ballpark but will pay an additional $22 million to cover costs associated with ballpark enhancements and fan amenities. Ownership has also pledged an additional $15 million to augment infrastructure upgrades outside and around the ballpark

#29 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:15 PM

So where is the part about it having to be their own money, from their own bank account?



From the Twins own site on MLB.com:


$260 million comes from Hennepin County and $152 million comes from the Pohlad family and the Twins. Initially, ownership pledged $130 million for the ballpark but will pay an additional $22 million to cover costs associated with ballpark enhancements and fan amenities. Ownership has also pledged an additional $15 million to augment infrastructure upgrades outside and around the ballpark


This is also from your link.


Under the proposal, the Twins would contribute $125 million, including a $40 million payment up front, with the balance to be paid prior to completion of construction. Hennepin County would fund its share -- including $235 million in construction costs and approximately $84 million in site development

#30 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 3,679 posts

Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:36 PM

What difference does it make if they paid up front or borrowed it?


They actually paid for their share of the stadium up front, using their own money = they are able to use all current revenue (minus normal other expenses such as minor leagues, travel, etc) to support player payroll (minus other normal expenses, i.e. minor leagues, travel, etc.)

They actually didn't pay a dime for the stadium up front, instead using other people's money = they first must extract loan payments from current revenues (and then take out normal other expenses) before using said revenue to support player payroll

Why else do we still hear the "52% of revenues to payroll" line? None of their other expenses (with the probable exception of revenue sharing) changed dramatically when they moved to TF. The cost of running their minor leagues didn't change. The cost of travel for the team didn't change. The cost of their other employees didn't change dramatically. Why would payroll expenditures still be "around 50-52%" of revenue?


Why would a business arbitrarily reduce it's margins just because they moved? Revenue has increased, so has payroll, I wouldn't expect them to increase the percentage they pay towards it.

They do have one additional expense change that didn't exist at the Dome, a $150M loan payment. The fact is, it makes way more sense for the Pohlads to borrow the money at a favourable interest rate (probably payable to themselves from their own investment firm), than to shell out that kind of working capital that could be earning considerably more in the marketplace. You need to get over rich people knowing how to get richer, they can have their cake and eat it too.